Re: A comment and question on Jews God and History

Andy Katz <amkatz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

> On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:11:24 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
> <Don_SCJM@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> >THere are a number of books I won't read to my children; one of them
> >is "The Giving Tree". To me, the moral is "go ahead and abuse your
> >friends, because the true friends will keep coming back for more."
> >I see it as more of a sad co-dependant story than a heartwarming one.
>
> God isn't people. And even if He were, I'd expect His relationship
> with humankind and the Jewish people to resemble that of a parent
> toward his progeny, and a certain degree of abuse is part of the
> process by which children mature and develop separate identities. Of
> course I realize this can go too far quickly, and children ought to
> treat their parents with respect even while carving out their own
> unique identities.
>
A certain degree, perhaps. Of course, the Torah does say what
will happen when the people (as a people) transgress, even with
the foreknowledge that the people WILL transgress. But as you
note, there are degrees. At what point does your child's abuse
of you as a parent get bad enough that you kick them out of the
house? At what point do you refuse to bail them out of jail?

> And therein lies the problem. What is meant in the original
> supposition? Who is abusing and/or defying God? What constitutes abuse
> vs honest error? Why, if we're including recent history, were
> overwhelming majority of those punished *not* normally defined as
> being in defiance of Hashem?
>
Overwhelming majority? I don't know the demographics of how
many Jews lived where at the time, but if 6 million Jews were
killed in Europe, that sounds like (if not the majority) at least
a sizeable minority at the time.

Also, keep in mind that when one inflicts corporal punishment
upon one's child, you run the risk of damaging some of the cells.
And yet you don't consider the cells, you consider the whole
organism. What if the murder of 6 million of us *as individuals*
is to be punishment against the *people* AS a people?

> Most analogies break down because no two things are precisely alike.
> Analogies between the divine and mundane break down even faster, and
> in this case they don't even get off the ground. I honestly believe
> there are too many variables here, too many issues begging definition
> to say that the abuse of ones' friends or even relatives can be
> compared to the alleged abuse of God.
>
OK, I understand that. In this case, though, I might also
suggest that the scale is larger simply because Gd is larger.

> >Assuming for a moment Lisa's initial premise regarding our actions,
> >why would you assume that a Gd you've (general 'you') openly defied,
> >denied, and insulted would continue to "take you back"? How long
> >would you expect that to go on - especially when the demand for
> >protection is made while continuing to defy, deny, etc?
>
> Well, assuming Lisa's premise, then one would likely also have to
> assume her conclusions. I don't necessarily agree with the unstated
> premise that God is just a non-corporeal version of King Lear.
>
You don't have to assume the conclusions, though they can be
derived from the assumptions. We *are* told, though, that
Gd is a jealous god, and a vengeful god. It is not too far a stretch,
then, to see this.

> Mark Twain said that man is the only creature that blushes, or needs
> to.
>
Yes, and? So we have the capability to feel embarassment - and the
capability to do things to engender that feeling. We can rail against
our Creator - rebel, defy, curse and vilify. And yes, we can blush.

> God fashioned a being in such a way that eternal forebearance is not
> only highly desireable, it's also probably essential;-)
>
I would hope so... :-)

> I don't know how many readers are familiar with John Morresy, but his
> short story "Final Version" is a pretty good literary alternative to
> conventional views of the God/mankind relationship.
>
> Andy Katz

I'll see if I can find it.
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
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Relevant Pages

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