Re: Bugger all to do with "Gib" - and on topic


F�achad�ir <F�ach@d.�ir> wrote:
>

[snipage for brevity not censure]

>
>I'm getting off the point, which is that if its worth studying Austen,
>then surely its worth studying our own indigenous literature too. That
>goes for English too by the way. The poetry syllabus in English
>contained a fair dose of Yeats and Kavanagh, but why not
>Swift/Gullivers Travels, or Maria Edgeworth, or Goldsmith? The only
>Irish prose authors I can remember were a few in the Inter short story
>anthology, an awful lot of which seemed to be by Frank O'Connor
>


I think that is a separate point and one I am not out of symapthy with: teaching
Irish authors in English litrature. Granted I would conceeded that it would
elevate the general cultural awareness of things Irish and would lead more
horse to water of the Irish language but the point here is getting them to
drink.


>>I'm probably being thick here but what's the point you're
>>trying to make. If you want to proselytize for Irish as a living language
>>then advocating maintaining it on a par with obligatory Maths and English
>>seems and odd road to tread to me.
>
>I think it should be taught to everyone. I also think it should be
>taught better. The objective should be to create speakers, not bored
>teenagers with a pathological hatred of old women from the Blaskets.
>


Sorry about the Peig thing but it's blandness is/was apalling. Pure Oirish
drivel when you set aside the socio-historic merits such as they were. Why
should it be taught to everyone? and why to leaving cert level in particular?
You can't really compare it to English in that respect. The objectives are
clearly different. English is the living language. Mandating English education
to leaving cert level is presumably an effort to broaden communication abilities.
It is a useful tool even in technical professions. Maths too is a living
language, everyone of us has to use it at some level. Irish on the other
hand is not a universal language and is not living in the same sense as English,
at least nowhere near as broadly. As it stands andating it appears to be
a sure-it-is every-thing-is-grand answer, head in the sand stance if viewing
it as equal to English. So the real objective with mandating Irish must be
different if equally boring to the students. The idea is probably to maintain
or expand the use of the language. I know this is being unforgiveably utilitarian
in ascribing vocational goals to academic subjects, but it highlights the
differences.


>>The challenge is how to attract people like the young Si to bother with
the
>>language.
>
>Sex. Have them read the mucky bits.
>


What mucky bits? I read Kinsella's translation of the Tain again a few months
back. I'm remembering off the top of me head here but his account of yer
mans use of the Gae-bolg was along the lines of "traveled the by ways of
the body' or some such gnomic expression. True that would work if it could
be done. You have a double challenge there: wiping out all the airbrushings
of our recent coy past and investing the words themselves with the same subversive
qualities as their English counterparts.

I was always struck by the contrast in language classes between Latin (dropped
at O Level, transition year) and Irish, mandated to leaving cert. In latin
we were being treated to Ceasers romping yarns boring in themselves but when
backed up with treaties on Legion organisation, Roman tactics and weaponry
made for palatable stuff. Then the irish class seemed to be noodling over
half warmed up poems whinging about the perfidious albion or wood shortages.



>>Compulsion is a very poor option. Mandating it for certain professions
>>doesn't work either. We simply choose not to consider those careers. Or
to
>>look outside Ireland for them if we are that driven. Is compulsory Irish
>>expanding your speaking population? Is it even maintaining it? Hell can
>>you even correlate at all?
>
>Correlation isn't causation, but for what its worth: 19th century,
>English (and instruction in English) mandatory in schools: language
>decline. 20th century, Irish compulsory: language decline halted.
>There are other factors of course.


That could be a 'lightbulb' curve for all we know though given the loss of
so many regional languages in Europe it most likely isn't


>
>>More Gaelgoir schools is just hand in dyke stuff. There has to be better
>>options than just that.
>
>Gaeilscoileanna produce Irish speakers. What's to argue with that?
>


Nothing at all but it is preaching to the converted no? How do you get Joe
Blogs in the street to seriously think of using Irish? Your focus seems to
be on fostering a new generation without going to the bother of convincing
the present one that it will be worth the effort. True the Gaeilscoils dominate
the performance tables but what do they mean in the end? Is there still an
automatic bonus for completing your exams in Irish?



Si


"Bog snorkler extraordinaire"







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