Re: Proof?

On Aug 8, 5:40 pm, sam1...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Aug 8, 12:41 am, donie <donien...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:


--discussed, and cut>


There are a lot of things about christianity that you don't understand
the way christians do, and you compound your misunderstanding with
mixing christianity with jewish. I think your problem stems from
understanding christianity the islam way. With regard to the
interpretation of Jesus Christ fulfilling the law, I don't have the
pretension of being able to explain in a simple manner. I can give you
a link, should you seriously feel you desire to learn to know obout
our Lord Jesus Christ. But please don't just read it using your islam
eyes, and air it to public. You will appear to be ridiculing
yourselves more, and as you said, since you considered the bible is
corrupted, it can not boost you islamic faith, anyway. So why bother
reading and interpreting bible your own way?

I disagree. There is no such thing as mixing christianity with
jewish beliefs. Prophet Isa/Jesus (as) was a jew , therefore
whether you like it or not the jewish elements will have to
be included. If you claim of such , what you are saying is
that you are only restricted to the NT. Then why bother to
have the OT in your bible. What you are doing is trying to
throw away whatever in the bible that does not fit your
outlook or belief of say 'christian love'. Things does not
happen this way ...... if you take upon the book , you need
to take all of it.

Here is one explanation of the relationship between the OT and the
Gospel, covering a number of issues of our discussion.

====How Christians benefit from the Old Testament=========

An Analysis of 2 Timothy 3:15-17

James M. Arlandson


One day, I got an email from a Christian who seemed genuinely
concerned that jihad in the Quran was analogous to hunting down and
killing mediums in the Old Testament (Leviticus 20:27 and 1 Samuel
28:3-9). (It is a sad fact that Christians in history have done this,
erroneously.) I regularly read Muslim polemics that seek to bind
Christians to every aspect of the Old Testament, such as severe
punishments of sinners, and holy wars.

If the Bible orders these practices, then who are Christians to
complain about jihad in Islam and the Quran’s revival of harsh
punishments?

However, I have never heard a qualified pastor or priest today assert
that we should hunt down witches or wage a Christian jihad. Simple
hermeneutics (the science of interpretation) can clarify why they do
not. When the Old and New Testaments are interpreted carefully and
rightly, using Scripture to interpret Scripture, this truth will
emerge: Christ has fulfilled the Old Testament in many, many areas.

Christians honor and revere the Old Testament as inspired by God, and
they learn timeless truths from it, but many of its passages, like
animal sacrifice, no longer apply to today after Jesus ushered in a
new era of salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15-17, serving as a gateway for the rest of this article,
is analyzed first. Then five other questions are asked and answered,
such as "Do progressive revelations damage the universal truths in the
Old Testament?"

Having basic theological textbooks for beginners in the background,
this article’s purpose is to clarify some issues for both Christians
and Muslims alike.

(1) 2 Timothy 3:15-17 says that God has inspired the Scriptures (the
Old Testament), so is this holy book still binding on Christians
today?

Paul writes to Timothy:

15 . . . You have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make
you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture
is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and
training for righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be
thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This passage perfectly supports the main point of the promise and
fulfillment process in the New Testament. All of the clauses are
linked by one central theme: Christians learn faith and morals and
timeless truths from the Old Testament, which are not bound by time
and place. Let’s analyze the passage verse by verse.

Verse 15: You have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make
you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Abraham is an example in the Old Testament, "who makes us wise for
salvation." God promises him a son, and "Abraham believed the Lord,
and he credited it to him as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6). Paul the
Apostle finds this passage in Genesis "useful" for showing how faith
saves us, and our faith is placed in Christ (Romans 4). So the
inspired Old Testament, when used properly, can teach us about
salvation through faith in Christ. This is a universal truth that the
New Testament applies to us.

Verse 16: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting, and training for righteousness . . .

Here are some examples of "rebuking, correcting, and training for
righteousness."

First, the inspired authors of Hebrews uses God’s "rest" on the
seventh day in Genesis 1-3 to teach us about a divine Sabbath rest
that is fulfilled in Christ (Hebrews 4). We rest in his atoning good
work on the cross, so that we do not have to depend on our
righteousness to usher us into heaven. Our own works make us insecure
because we are never one hundred percent sure that they are good
enough. This lesson from the Old Testament "trains" us to receive the
righteousness of Christ, for our own is not good enough. This truth
rises above time and place.

Second, Jesus himself uses Scripture to rebuke some chief priests and
Pharisees who reject him (Matthew 21:33-46). After telling the Parable
of the Tenants, in which the tenants rent out a vineyard, but then
kill the son (= Son of God) of the vineyard owner (= Father God), he
quotes a passage from the Psalms to drive home the point as a rebuke:

42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The
stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done
this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.’ (See Psalm 118:22-23)

The chief priests and the Pharisees (the builders) reject Jesus (the
stone-turned-capstone by the Lord’s doing), so they "knew he was
talking about them" (Matthew 21:45). Jesus rebukes them with
Scripture, just as 2 Timothy 3:16 says. The timeless spiritual
message: We would all do well not to reject the stone (the Son of God)
that the Lord has made the capstone.

Our final example of "teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training for
righteousness" is found in 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1. Paul quotes
Scripture to preserve the holiness of believers, so that they do not
mingle excessively closely with darkness and unbelievers. "I will live
with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will
be my people. Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the
Lord" (6:17; cf. Leviticus 26:12; Jeremiah 32:38; Ezekiel 37:27;
Isaiah 52:11). These passages correct the Corinthian Christians (and
us). The passages train them to be more righteous, which teaches us
about faith and morals, which are always valid, as 2 Timothy counsels.

Verse 17: . . . so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for
every good work.

The main thesis of this verse, seen in the two words "so that," is for
the man of God to be equipped for every good work. The examples used
in our analysis of verses 16 and 17 show us this kind of equipping.
The man of God not only teaches timeless faith and morals in the Old
Testament to the church, but he himself walks in righteousness, after
being corrected and rebuked by Scripture, if he was tempted to wander
off.

Thus, we find that the central theme of the Timothy passage counsels
us to learn faith and morals and universal truths about life for
followers of Christ. All of these truths come directly from the Old
Testament. This book is inspired by God as a promise or prophecy,
which finds fulfillment in the New Testament, especially in Christ.

So is the Old Testament still binding on New Testament believers? The
word "binding" may be too strong. But the direct answer depends on the
doctrine or passage in the Old Testament. When it teaches spiritual
and universal truths like how to obey God and have a relationship with
him, then it is authoritative for the believer. But other areas like
circumcision and animal sacrifice are no longer binding. But even in
the case of circumcision Paul uses the practice to teach us about
circumcision of the heart (Romans 2:28-29), once again taking an old
physical truth from the Old Testament and spiritualizing it. Our
hearts are "circumcised" so that we can join the New Covenant. As
eating or not eating food "does not bring us near to God" (1
Corinthians 8:8), so "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is
nothing" (7:19; cf. Acts 16:3). These natural and physical things
ultimately point to spiritual things, in Christ.

This passage in 2 Timothy can be further clarified with five more
questions.

(2) What is the relation between the Old Testament and the New
Testament?

A wise adage says: the New Testament is in the Old concealed, and the
Old is in the New revealed. Another one says that the Old Testament is
to the New what promise is to fulfillment.

Both of these sayings mean that Old Testament truths find their
amplification and explanation and fullness in the New Testament. For
example, the animal sacrifices in the Old points toward Christ’s
atoning sacrifice on the cross. Or the prophecy about the suffering
and death of the Anointed Servant in Isaiah 53 points to Christ and
his suffering and death. The New Testament makes ample use of the Old
in the double theme of prophecy and promise.

(3) What are some major doctrines and themes that are promised and
prophesied in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament?

Here are four areas in the Old Testament, representing others, that
have been fulfilled in the New Testament, through Christ.

(1) Christians no longer wage military warfare as the Old Testament
commands. That was relevant to the historical era of the Old
Testament. God wanted a small land cleansed of a specific kind of
paganism. (See this article and this one on how Old Testament wars
differ from Islamic wars of world conquest.) But in the New Covenant
believers wage spiritual warfare to fight nonmaterial forces by
preaching and praying alone. The inspired Apostle Paul says:

3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world
does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On
the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We
demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against
the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it
obedient to Christ. (2 Corinthians 10:3-5)

Paul uses the image of a military war with words like "weapons,"
"fight," "demolish," and "strongholds." But these verses have nothing
to do with fighting people with sharp swords in a physical war.
Instead, the verses communicate mental and spiritual warfare, in key
words such as "arguments," "pretension," "knowledge," and "thought."

(2) In the Torah, the three main traditional divisions are fulfilled:
the moral, ceremonial, and judicial, but only the latter two are
analyzed here.

Jesus fulfills the ceremonial or ritual aspect of the Torah (Hebrews
9:11-14).

11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already
here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is
not manmade, that is to say, not part of this creation. 12 He did not
enter by means of the blood of goats and calves, but he entered the
Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal
redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of heifers
sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that
they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of
Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to
God, cleanse out consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we
serve the living God.

This passage contrasts the sacrificial system in the Old Covenant
under a fallible high priest, a temporary tabernacle and the blood of
animals with the Christ’s once and for all sacrifice, which ushered in
the New Covenant as he entered the perfect, heavenly tabernacle. The
Old Testament makes promises by using temporary signs and copies,
whereas the New fulfills them with their reality.

Besides the atonement through blood sacrifices, Christians are
permitted to eat whatever foods their conscience allows them (Mark
7:14-19). If they voluntarily keep away from traditionally unclean
animals like swine, then they are free to do this. But this is not a
requirement from Christ or the New Testament authors. In Christ, all
foods are ritually clean (1 Corinthians 8:1-13) (See Question no. 1,
verse 17).

Second, Jesus fulfills the judicial aspect of the Torah.

The passage from the Epistle to Hebrews just now quoted above
discusses the outward cleansing. In the New Covenant, Christ cleanses
the inner man. His death on the cross takes away the severe penalty of
death for sins like homosexuality and cursing parents because divine
wrath for human sins was poured on him on the cross. However,
criminals like murderers should be punished, because of the principles
of justice behind the particular rules. Both the Old and New
Testaments promote good government (Romans 13:1-7). But even they can
have their sins forgiven while they suffer the just consequences of
their crimes. Jesus and the New Testament authors never rescinded
justice. The lives of criminals can be redeemed.

Here is a link to a prison ministry, Prison Fellowship. They preach
the gospel to prisoners and help them out in practical ways.

(3) In the Old Covenant, God gave instructions on how to build a
mobile tabernacle (Exodus 25-27). Then he gave special permission to
Solomon to build a permanent temple (1 Kings 5:1-6:38 and 7:13-8:66).
However, Jesus fulfills this earthly temple in his own person and in
his church. Jesus says to the Pharisees, referring to himself: "I tell
you that one greater than the temple is here" (Matthew 12:6). Jesus
said this in the historical and literary context of keeping the law
and sacrificing in the temple. He now fulfills the temple sacrifices
and becomes a living temple through his new people of God: his church
(1 Corinthians 3:16 and 1 Peter 2:4-8). His church is found around the
world now, so his living temple is worldwide and not limited to one
location. Further, the long passage in Hebrews says that Christ
entered a perfect tabernacle, that is, in heaven. So the earthly
tabernacle in the Old Covenant has multiple fulfillments: Christ’s
person, his church, and heaven. These fulfillments are united in their
move away from the literal and obsolete earthly tabernacle under the
Old Covenant.

(4) Christ fulfills prophecies that predicted his first coming. This
theme relates to a major part of the Old Testament, the Prophets. They
promised a new era of salvation, and Jesus fulfills that promise. As
noted under Question no. 2, the primary example among many, many
others is found in Isaiah 53, which describes the suffering Servant-
Messiah. Verse 5 says: "But he was pierced for our iniquities; the
punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we
are healed." This is a perfect description of Jesus’ death on the
cross, since he was wounded and pierced. His death brings us peace
from God because it atones or pays for our sins. He fulfills every
prophecy that predicted his first coming.

These four areas and others have been explored more fully in this
article and this one.

(4) Is there a progression of revelation from the Old Testament to the
New Testament?

Progressive revelation is a fact of the Bible.

In Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians he divides the dealings of God
before Christ came and after he came. In the past, people were
enslaved to basic principles of the world. "But when the time had
fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to
redeem those under the law that we might receive the full rights of
sons" (4:4-5).

The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews makes this point very
strongly, distinguishing between past revelations and those in the
last days. "In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the
prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he
has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and
through whom he made the universe" (Hebrews 1:1-2). In ancient times,
God used a variety of means of revelations, even Balaam’s donkey
(Numbers 22:21-34). Now revelation has progressed up to the Son of
God. The New Testament is the final and complete revelation.

Incidentally, for Bible-educated Christians, neither the Quran nor the
Book of Mormons is valid or authoritative. They can be studied as
cultural artifacts, but their theologies diverge too widely from Jesus
Christ as he is presented in the New Testament, whose authors knew him
or who stayed close to and researched those who knew him in the
apostolic community.

The Epistle to the Hebrews goes on to say that the Old Testament is
rooted in history, being encased in earthly and cultural shells,
containing many types and shadows and symbols (e.g. Hebrews 8:5 and
9:23). The New Testament, also rooted in history, contains the
reality, substance, and fulfillment, being a spiritual revelation. It
is a more complete sacred book with mature themes, such as the
fullness of the Spirit of God. In the Old Testament, the Spirit was
given to a limited number of people and not in his complete power. But
in the New Testament, the Spirit is poured out on the universal
church, and he dwells in them in a permanent and powerful and full
way.

However, the incompleteness of the Old Testament does not mean that it
is devoid of some mature teachings. An example is polygamy and
monogamy. The Old Testament holds up monogamy in the Garden of Eden,
but it also allows polygamy, though it is also honest enough to reveal
the problems inhering in this custom (Genesis 16:5 and 1 Samuel
1:6-7). The New Testament affirms the original model in the Garden of
Eden: one man and one woman (Matthew 19:3-6). So monogamy represents a
mature teaching of the Old Testament, which the New Testament
everywhere affirms.

(5) Do progressive revelations damage the divine universal truths in
the Old Testament?

Nothing damages divine universal truths. Revelation is given to humans
in a form that they can understand in their own culture and language
and customs. It is misguided to force, for example, the culture of
Corinth in Paul’s day on to the culture of Sinai in Moses’ day.
Interpreters of the Bible take each passage in its historical context.
But embedded in these various contexts are truths that transcend or
rise above time and place. For example, Moses says not to commit
adultery (Exodus 20:14), and Jesus says the same (Matthew 5:27-28).

Here is a cultural-historical example from which we can derive
timeless truths even today. Moses sent twelve spies to explore the
land of Canaan (Numbers 13). After their return, ten gave a bad
report. No one could conquer that land. But only Joshua and Caleb had
enough faith to proclaim that the land is fruitful, and God would give
it to them, so they should prepare to take it. But should we apply the
passage literally today as if Christians go out and spy and conquer?
Rather, the universal truth that we learn is faith and trust in God,
which raises our vision beyond our physical surroundings and
challenges and obstacles; keeping our eyes focused on them may cause
us to doubt. God will help us conquer our own non-literal "land of
Canaan" if we put our trust in him and follow him closely.

However, this search for timeless truths does not mean that we discard
the historical context of each passage in the Bible. Referencing this
context keeps us honest and does not allow us to twist the Scriptures
as we want. It is a difficult process to get to know the cultural and
social and political context of the Bible, which has been written over
a span of fourteen hundred years. So it is imperative to find
accessible, understandable commentaries that respect the Bible. Often,
Bible translations have commentaries added in, such as the New
International Version (NIV) Study Bible. (I find it to be very
helpful.)

So the concept of revelations that progress from one era to the next
does not damage universal, timeless truths, such as faith, obedience,
redemption, salvation, trust, praise and worship, and fellowship with
the Lord. These themes run throughout both the Old and New Testaments,
regardless of the era. However, the New Testament puts its own stamp
on them, such as salvation through Christ and his atoning death of
redemption, to which the Old Testament had testified, if only
partially and indirectly through animal sacrifices and prophecies
concerning the Messiah.

(6) How do we know when the Old Testament applies to us who live under
the New Covenant and when it does not apply?

As noted in the previous question, the New Testament guides us as to
when to apply or not apply the Old Testament, and this interpretive
skill requires careful study. The New Testament sacred books and
epistles quote the Old Testament, but their use of it teaches lessons
about faith and morals and other timeless themes. Even when a New
Testament saint, like Stephen, reviews an historical outline of the
Old Testament, the spiritual, moral punch line is not far away (Acts
7:1-8:1). Stephen sketches out the sweep of the Old Testament to
rebuke the self-righteous leaders (recall that rebuking is a purpose
in 2 Timothy 3:16). The spiritual punch line says that the Jewish
establishment in his day was too eager to kill their own fathers and
the Righteous One, Jesus Christ (Acts 7:51-52).

But we must not do a simplistic transference of every verse in the Old
Testament to our lives, the church, and society today. This has caused
all sorts of problems. This example must be repeated. God commands in
the Old Testament the execution of adulterers (Leviticus 20:10).
However, Paul points out that some in the church were once adulterers
(and he adds homosexuals, prostitutes, and idolaters, all of whom were
stoned in the Old Testament). But now they have the opportunity of
being cleansed: "And that is what some of you were. But you were
washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the
Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11).

It must not be believed that early Christians really wanted to stone
sinners, but they could not because Roman or Jewish law prevented
them. Smaller communities within the dominant one could carry out
their own brand of justice before the authorities knew about it. Jesus
was nearly thrown off a cliff by a mob (Like 4:28-30) and almost
stoned by other mobs (John 8:59 and 10:31). Stephen was stoned to
death. Jews and Gentiles of Iconium plotted to stone Paul, but he fled
their city (Acts 14:5). He was nearly killed by this method in Lystra
(Acts 14:19). Finally, a Roman named Gallio, proconsul of Achaia,
Greece, who lived in Corinth, showed no concern when some Jews beat
Sosthenes the synagogue ruler for supporting Paul. In fact, Gallio
told the Jews "settle the matter yourselves" (Acts 18:15). "Then they
all turned on Sosthenes the synagogue ruler and beat him in front of
the court. But Gallio showed no concern whatsoever" (v. 17). Thus, a
small community within the large one could take matters in its own
hands before the authorities knew about it, and sometimes they
explicitly permitted the sub-community to do this.

Incidentally, the purpose of the previous paragraph is to show how
Scripture interprets Scripture and how the historical context
clarifies the Bible. Though it takes a long time to learn how to do
this, which often requires respectful commentaries, it guards us
against twisting the Word of God for our own purposes.

To return to our example of how the early Christian church dealt with
sinners who would have been stoned under the Old Covenant, the New
Covenant ushers in a new way to deal with them. They convert to Christ
and are saved and washed and sanctified. But if they do not want this,
then that is their free choice. Even in this sad case, Christians wage
spiritual warfare by preaching and praying alone. They do not (or
should not) threaten or kill sinners by stoning them (or by any other
method). Jesus Christ pays for this harsh penalty meted out in the Old
Covenant by his death on the cross.

Conclusion

Christians receive great benefit and edification from reading the Old
Testament. This sacred book reveals many timeless and universal
themes, like faith and salvation, and hope and praise to God. But this
book has also been fulfilled in Christ, as God had promised. Now the
New Covenant guides the believer in Christ (and the rest of society if
it wants). He reads the Old Testament through the eyes of Christ and
the New Testament books and epistles. He must never simplistically
transfer every verse from the Old Covenant (like executing mediums and
adulterers) to the New Covenant, which instead provides forgiveness
and reconciliation and restoration.

These words must mean something: Old Covenant and New Covenant; Old
Testament and New Testament. Nonetheless, the interrelation between
the Old and the New is rich and profound. It takes years of study to
see how the two merge and separate, only to merge and separate all
over again—the unity and diversity of the Bible over for a span of
fourteen hundred years. The Old is to the New what promise is to
fulfillment. The New is in the Old concealed; and the Old is in the
New revealed.

The key is to know both the Old and New Testaments thoroughly.

Here is the universal truth that emerges from and unifies both
Covenants throughout the fourteen hundred years that the Bible was
composed: God loves us and offers a relationship with him. Now the
fullest relationship comes through Christ and the Spirit.

This article has three companion pieces: How Christ fulfills the Old
Testament, The freedom of Christ and the law of Muhammad, and Promise
and fulfillment in the Bible.
Copyright by James Malcolm Arlandson.

.

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