Re: Adin accuse Hmong as mercenaries

True, loves one died as a result of VP's decision...but was the
decision his alone to make? What would you have done if you were in
VP's shoes? How would you address the situation at the time? The
secret war wasn't picked by VP or the Hmong...the war picked VP and
the Hmong people. It was our faith to be part of this war. In life,
even powerful people make mistakes and only through their mistakes
they would learn to make better decision. When you are small and
easily stepped on by bigger and more powerful nations...you will have
no choice but to make a decision that you know would be in the best
interest of your people no matter what the cost. And I believe VP did
what he thought was in the best interest of Hmong from his position.
Remember...Hmong leaders at the time wasn't educated enough to fully
participate in the international political arena, let alone the war.
There was and still NO solid idea what Hmong want as a national goal?
Does Hmong have a "national goal" that Hmong seek before and after the
war? If so, what is it? Hmong were so divided (as we are today) and
for this reason Hmong were used in all fronts from the top down. SAD!
So instead of bringing the past to rehash and divide us, let’s bring
the past to UNITE us for a common goal and that is to put our energy
together and focus on the future. Let’s build our human resources on
every level of government and put them on high level strategic
positions. The next "war" would not be spilled by blood, but by
busineses and international commerce. Are Hmong ready? Our future rest
strategically on how we laid the foundation of our people. We can all
agree to disagree and move on as a people, otherwise we are repeating
the same mistakes our forefathers did many moons ago. You decide.

jim




On Feb 28, 10:28 am, adin...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Feb 27, 9:39 pm, All4One <jim_...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Regardless whether VP has any brain or not.... fact of the matter is
VP's decision to thrust his people into the war gave people like you
and me the opportunity we could only dream of achieving in 200 years
from now.  Yes, lets reflects the past and learn from our mistakes so
that we can live a better future.  I could never feel more proud than
to be a product of VP's decision.  Hmong as a whole has nothing to
regret for what had happened 30+ years ago...if anything, Hmong should
feel fortunate to be where we are today. In time of war, people make
decision based on circumstances that may or may not be in their full
control as in the case of the secret war.  Yes, lives have lost,
family separated ocean apart as a result of VP's decision to involved
his people in the war.... However, can we said we LOST everything? I
think all of you would agree that we WIN everything, but the war. Rest
assures the fight is NOT over it's just begun. Lets build our arsenal
of human resources first...

jim

On Feb 27, 12:27 pm, adin...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

Sibtham,

Here are a couple definitions of the term “mercenary”.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/mercenary
mercenary NOUN:
pl. mer�ce�nar�ies
1.      One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.
2.      A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary
A mercenary is a person who takes part in an armed conflict who is not
a national of a Party to the conflict and "is motivated to take part
in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in
fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict,
material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid
to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of
that Party".[1][2]

 [[Sacrificing something for another thing is a willful act and the
presumption is that one know already the outcome bad or good. Fighting
for a cause is also a willful act but the presumption is that one can
only hope for the better outcome. There is nuance in this concept yet
simple but somehow difficult for many to grasp. It shouldn't be
repeated so many times! ]]

Sacrificing and fighting are not the same. Sacrificing is not a
willful act. It is an awful act. Only people like your kind, vp and
the likes would honor a sacrifice. Not me, no. There is no concept
here to grasp. It is too simple that people who caused turmoil for the
Hmong just want to cover their asses.

[[I was expecting more convincing arguments but instead you revealed
the condition of your concession. I hope that you are a man who is
ready to accept his own words. I'll demonstrate that you agree with me
and your arguments have no merit. This is what you wrote: "I will
agree with
your statement above only if VP rose up by himself to organize and
mobilize the Hmong to defend Laos during that time". And this is my
statement that you reffered to.
"During the war VP may be ambitious but he couldn't foresee the
future. The US wanted to dominate the world but they coudn''t predict
victory either. The casualty increased with time in all front
Vietkong, Hmong and  Americain. Did VP and the US gvt sacrificed these
innocent souls
just to fullfill their ego? I don't believe so, they fought to win.
The war was an ongoing activity. The longer it last the higher the
casualty. It is only in 1975 when the US pulled out that VP realized
that it was over. " ]]

You opened another can of worm. I like it. I will accept whatever I
say. But I won’t accept your method of sacrificing 50k for 100k Hmong
to enjoy freedom and economic opportunities. I won’t change my mind
unless you convince me that your father, vp, and the likes have
confessed themselves that sacrificed 50k for 100k Hmong is wrong. I
probably will settle this issue of sacrificing 1 to 2 ratios with you
if only had VP washed his hands off the Hmong people both in Laos in
abroad post 1975. Another word, if the pre-1975 secret war was not to
fullfill their personal egos, for example, to obtain multiple mia
noys, fancy military titles, CIA’s dollars, power to control the
Hmong, etc., per your claim, then this so called United Lao National
Liberation Front (Neo Hom) should not be existed post the war. If what
you stated is true that when the US pulled its troops from Southeast
Asia in 1975, VP realized that the war was over. Why VP created Neo
Hom? If VP’s ego was not to sacrifice the Hmong for his personal gain
or for his crooks then why he continues to sell these fake military
and government official pots to the Hmong community abroad as well as
directly ordered the left behind Hmong to stay in the jungle to fight
the communist government until these days? If VP has no ego as you
said or better his ego had died with the secret war, then VP should
not have been arrested and put in house arrest today, don’t you
agree?  Please convince me more on this fake promise. Is it that ego
or what?

[[In the late 1957 VP was already spotted as a talented officer in the
Lao army. As a minority he rose to the rank of commander on his own
merit. At the same time Lao political parties solidified, and it was
also clear that VP sided with the right wing General Phoumi and Chao
Boun Oung. Infact it all started in the late 1959 when he secretly
worked with General Phoumi and captured the pro communist General
Amkra Sukavong who landed in Xienghkoung and was appointed to take the
commander post of MRII. VP just didn't know that he would be in charge
of that post later down the road. Inspite of the neutralist status of
Laos the NVA  willingly increased its troups inside Lao territory.. ]]

Perhaps you know history better than me. But based on what I heard, VP
was a hungry dog at that time who would lick on any bone, the French’s
bone, Tub Bee Lyfong’s bone, Phoumi and Chao Boun Oung’s bone, the
CIA’s bone, and even the commie’s bone. Don’t you agree that a hungry
dog doesn’t have an owner? That’s precisely why the CIA got VP into
this mess because he was too hungry. If VP is that smart as you
claimed, then the war in Laos shouldn’t be called a secret war.. Smart
leaders don’t things under the ground or accept secret operation.

[[Yes, VP commitment with General Phoumi was to defend Laos and
prevent her to fall to the communists. All the above events had
occured before the American even have any infuences on VP. Then enter
the Ameicains clandestinely. They also wanted to stop the spread of
communism before it infested Laos and eventually Thailand. Bill Lair
wanted  VP. During this time VP was anything else but an idealist.. He
only knew the Americans as an ally. No doubt it is expected that he
never fully understood the support LEVEL both military and financial
that Bill Lair would have committed and provided after the meeting in
Padong. VP organized and mobilized the Hmong force and the purpose was
to fight the communists with the help from the Americains. Toward the
end, always faithful to his cause and he warned the king about the
deceitful Vientiane
treaty but in vain. He dismissed his role to the king who was
evidently fooled and faced a deplorable fate. VP wasn't a demigod nor
a devil. He was simply a man full of ambitions and had a clear
conscience. Like other leaders he inherited good and bad qualities. ]]

You are wrong. VP surely knew that the total population of the Hmong
people at that time is not even a quarter of the total population of
Laos. A smart military leader would have evaluated or calculated his
weaknesses and strengths before committing him/herself for a war. In
this case, VP knew that his Hmong people were a small minority hill-
tribe that has no ability to fight a war compare to the whole Loyal
Lao Army. There is no brainer! VP would commit himself by accepting
the US CIA secret operation in Lao without knowing what kind of
consequences would occur. If what you claimed above is true, than my
assessment of VP’s leadership, that he never had a formal military
training nor a smart leader, is concluded.

[[ Your arguments were weightless by speculating him as a demigod or
devil who knew everything and intentionally trade Hmong lives for his
ego. Furthermore because of your ignorance or lacking of knowledge on
significants events you falsely accused him and the Hmong people as
mercenaries. Yet you offer no mere explanations nor you realized that
you've insulted our fallen bothers. In either case you got the shorter
straw, and worse of all by lacking decent analytical skill you mislead
yourself. And I explain: If he was demigod as you have claimed, it
simply meant that he knew the outcome already and no demigod would
never put himself in a bad position. If we was a devil then it mean at
the beginning, in Padong, his two red horns have grown and Bill Lair
just flashed in his face millions of dollars and promised him a life
full of lust and fortune. Bill Lair still has his own beast to kill
and as of today he is still denying any promises. Isn't it minuscule
that you and other twisted minds have concluded that VP have accepted
such fate? The factual conclusion was that he was faithful to his
cause, defended Laos against communism as mentioned above, adjusted
himself as the war progressed and as funds were become available, made
mistakes and also paved the road for our future generation.]]

Where did you get this demigod or devil from? I never state that VP is
a demigod or devil. Please kindly provide my line. I would commend our
fallen fathers or uncles only for the deeds that they were fooled by
VP to use their lives to exchange for monies from the CIA but not for
the stupid secret

...

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Jim,

Of course, your feeling and my feeling are different. And my feeling
and other people's feeling may not be the same as well. Perhaps only
you and certain people who careless about the Hmong people would say
we lost the war but win everything. People like me and many other
Hmong would say we lost the war and we lost everything, especially our
loved ones because of VP's decision. As I said to Sibtham and ctj, I
would agree with you that we should admit and accept the mistakes that
VP and our elders made before and during the secret war, but we cannot
tolerate their foolish mistakes after the war until today. Whoever
caused the turmoil to the Hmong community especially those that were
traped in the jungles in the past 32 years, should hold responsibility
for his/her action. The continuous tragedies of the Hmong in the
jungle for the long period of 32 years and now a corner had led into
an illegal refugee issue in Thailand was not happened by an accident
nor mistake. In fact, the Hmong victims recieved such consequences by
an ideology that engineered by the so called exiled Hmong leaders.

.

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