Re: Look how Hard the Athens News Tries to Push Multi-culturalism in Greece

Drexl Spivey wrote:
On Oct 28, 3:13 am, Platanos <faithinva...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Drexl Spivey wrote:
On Oct 25, 11:48 pm, Protagoras <gemini4...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Link:http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.index_htm?e=C
WTF?
And nobody is asking the question as to why it is desirable to have a
good immigration policy? As soon as the illegal immigrants become
legal they won't be cheap labor anymore.
And if Greece is so bad with immigration why don't the immigrants go
to the "enlightened" countries? Maybe they need them more than we do.
Those who employ illegal workers should pay a fine.
" If " Greece needs workers then permits can be given for a given
period. 6 months for Summer jobs or 4-6 months during the orange picking
season, olives etc.
On the other hand if they would raise the pay of a picker by 50% ( it
would affect the end price by 20% ) Greeks would do the jobs.
Illegal immigrants have hidden costs and it's not just about money.
Our democracy is eroding and our human rights.
I have nothing against foreign workers but only if they are really
needed and not to compete with the local working force because they are
cheaper because they are desperate.
" Will work for food ".
Some people in some place are desperate they would " work for food ".
But to we want our people to compete with people who would " work for
food " ?
If there is a lack of workers yes but not because the foreign workers
are cheaper.

I hear what's you're saying but this is what will happen in a free
economy. Businesses will want to find a way to reduce cost and payroll
is the biggest.

Lets split the world in to classes.
Owners of production facilities and workers at producing facilities.
Since owners outnumber workers greatly, can yelt bigger political power, are more flexible about where the production takes place and there are less jobs then people .........
Will work for food will become close to the truth.
But workers are also consumers ( with workers I mean all people who get wages )So the consuming must be done by a 1-5% minority then.
We developed industrialization because manual work was to expensive but this in turn created wealth and prosperity.
Our wealth in turn created many extras like the entertainment industry, travel industry etc. Less well paid people will not be able to afford holiday or entertainment ( Disney world etc ).
I don't believe in the whole talk of free trade.
It is not free ( Europe is protecting it's agriculture and the US is protectionistic too )
I am for fair trade.
A trade by which all included prosper.
I personally I am willing to pay up to 10% more for local products and up to 25% more fore environmental friendly products.
Tomatoes are grown in Europe mostly in aqua culture. They are cheaper but don't taste as good as tomatoes grown in earth.
Just gave a few example , meaning cheaper is not always cheaper or better.
Bought 5 cheap Chinese made umbrellas. 4 are broke by now.
The expensive made in Europe one is not only better looking but is also much more robust. Still whole and in one.


Illegal workers have no protection.
When an illegal worker gets sick he won't get paid.
He can be fired any time.

That's exactly the void they fill. Unfortunately labor of developed
countries dug their own grave by demanding too much in pay and perks.
Detroit auto makers closed most of manufacturing here to open in
Mexico. Sad, but the workers were basically writting their own tickets
in terms of pay and benefits.

Let Mexico join a North America economic union and you will see how prices will go up. Estland was much cheaper 10 years ago but now it belongs to the EU and the prices are almost the same.
Before joining the EU in Greece the restaurant prices were 40% of those of Germany or less. I guess now it's about 80-90%.
Different economic markets have different dynamics.
Europe wants to produce the airbus in China now because the working force is cheaper. That way China will get the latest technological knowhow for free. Knowhow that has cost billions to develop for free.
It's easy to compete when you get free knowhow and/or can copy the products of the developed world and ignore copyrights.
Add to this that China keeps by purpose the value of it's currency low, add to this that China is looking for dominance and in to the future and not like the west who cares only about the next 3 months profits and can't look 5, 10 or 20 years in to the future.
Ignore environmental protection, workers welfare and human rights and you can produce cheaper but you just pushing the expenses in to the future. Why do we schools? They only costs money or universities?
If we need engineers we can get them from Ireland ( for example )
Society must invest in some things where the turn over might take 20 years to show.
So how can we compete with low cost economies?
No to child labor. They must have a pension plan, health care, environmental protection laws, respect copyrights ( it can take millions to produce a product, research is expensive ).
Then their " advantage " won't be so great anymore.
The way I see it, greedy capitalist play working people against each other out and in the end they will loose.
The Chinese government looks whats best for China and our political leaders look what best for international companies but international companies don't own any loyalties to any nation. They can be wherever.
Global warming will take of the problem.
Fish stock depletion: It does not take long time to deplete fish stocks to an unsustainable level. After that ........ it can take thousand of years for the fish stock to recover if ever.


Illegal workers are endangering the rights and welfare of legal workers
but I don't blame them. I blame the authorities who don't put those who
employ illegal workers pay a hefty fine and the police for looking the
other way. My mother went to work in Germany but with a working permit.
6 years later she left Germany.

Yes enforcement is non-existent. Here in the states it's ridiculus.
New York (state) wants to have a special drivers license for
"undocumented" immigrants.

Raise the minimum wage and you will find Greeks willing to do the job.

Raising the minimum wage, at least here in the states, always hurts
the working class; It translates to Walmart McDonalds etc and even
small businesses raising their prices, usually disproportionate to the
raise.

Then they are heating. When the raw material gets 50% more expensive but the it's only 10% of the total production costs, nobody has the right to
to sell the endproduct 50% higher or 20%.
Weed prices went up this year by 60% but it affected the pasta price only by 10% if I remember right.

Not sure about Greece, but the dynamics in economics are
usually the same.

Saw I document by the BBC. In Britain the minimum wage is 8 Euro something and it did not hurt the economy but in Germany is lower and the politicians are arguing against raising the minimum wage.
I remember the conversation I had once with a Dutch many years back.
He complained that his worker was to expensive but it was the right thing anyway he said. When people get good paid they buy also stuff and that drives the economy but when people get bad paid they also have less money to spend.
I don't go to McDonalds but eat sometimes pizza out
.

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