Re: Do air strikes make sense in the Philippines? (Re: china donates...)

"Sylvia Knörr" <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSpam_@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

Non-violent means is not only talk. It could be an embargo or freezing of
international bank accounts as well, just to name a few.

Have you heard of a little thing called "Oil for Food"? Saddam was able to
get around economic and military sanctions with the help of his various
Euro, ME and Chinese friends.

Embargo Iran? Russia won't go along with that, probably not France.

When have embargos and freezing of bank accounts stopped terrorism?

<snip for brevity>

How do you "talk" with people who have nothing to gain with talk? You
assume that others share your sense of fairness, but that is a parochial
Western value. Compromise and equitable agreement are not universal.
the Islamists, they are defiling their religion and betraying Allah's
commands if they seek anything other than total victory. You just don't
understand that because it's... well... unreasonable.

You may have a point that I fail to understand some people. But I *think*
that humans are basically the same everywhere we go, differing only on
details. I don't deny that these details can be very tricky, that's why it
is important to have a vivid exchange of ideas worldwide.

That is your problem. Do you understand how a mother could send her child
off to blow themselves up to kill innocent women and children because they
are of a different religion? If you cannot identify with that mother, then
you must admit that people are *not* all the same.

When you have men who believe that they are superior to women, and it is
their Allah-given right to subjugate women, to beat them, to humiliate them,
and to kill them if they besmirch their "honor" - can you identify with
that? Can you identify with cutting the heads off men and women to impress
your enemies?

All the evidence is that the Islamists *do not* think like you do. They
couldn't have made that clearer over the past 30 years. What will it take
for you to understand that they are different, that their values are not the
same? When they say, "Freedom is bad" and "Democracy and choice are evil,"
can you relate to them? Isn' that a basic belief you have that they are

The thing is, the Islamists are not hiding what they are and what they want.
They have made it very clear. You just don't want to believe them, because
you think people couldn't really be that evil. But they are. They count on
you not believing them, because it allows them to gain more power and
infiltrate your society. Now European nations are starting to make it a
crime to criticize Islam - they are doing the work of the Islamists and
starting to implement the earliest stages of Sharia.

The cartoons illustrate this. What the Islamists (and even so-called
moderate Muslims) say is - there is no compromise. You must abide by our
definition of propriety. You must observe our customs no matter how they
conflict with yours. Your freedom of speech and press (which,
allow us to protest this without being shot or jailed) are anathema to
and must be crushed. If you do not, we will kill you. Think that is
limited to Pakistan and Afghanistan? Look at the pictures here from the
UK: Hmmm. "Freedom go to

I guess that this "freedom go to hell" picture is a fraud.

Wrong. The sign is real, and was reported in papers and sites around the

See, this is your naivete. Remember when Al-Zarqawi sent out a tape before
the Iraq elections in 2005? He said, "We have declared a bitter war against
democracy and all those who seek to enact it. Democracy is also based on
the right to choose your religion and that is against the rule of God."

The fact that you cannot believe people would actually believe such things
and carry such signs indicates how little you know about the Muslims.

Freedom is against Islam. Freedom means that you can say what you want, but
Islamists want curbs on speech (nothing bad about the Prophet!). Freedom
means education for all, but Islamists prevent girls from education past the
elementary level. Freedom means you can drink, which Islam is against.
Freedom means that women can drive - but not in Islamic countries. Freedom
means that you can worship as you choose - but that is against Islam, the
only true religion.

Though I#m quite suspicious towards Muslims, I try not to get too
prejudiced. They are not ALL bad. In Germany, we had only PEACEFUL
over the cartoons so far - this proves that a peaceful coexistence is

Really? Tell that to the German embassy staff in Tehran, which was attacked
Feb 14. The fact that your police kept things from getting out of hand
proves *nothing*. It probably means that - to date - your Muslim population
is too small to feel free to act violently. In countries where they are a
significant minority, they flex your muscle.

Yeah, I can reason with her...

Where is there room to talk there?

Let's say that *you* are named the ambassador for the Western world.
job - talk with OBL and other terrorist leaders.

What would you say? WOuld you ask them what they want? They have
told you that - a world under sharia, with non-Muslims required to pay a
(jizya) to be allowed to live. There is no question as to what they
They openly state it, again and again and again.

If I were to talk with OBL, I would pretty much talk the same way as I'm
talking to you and anybody else - trying to convince people of what seems
reasonable *to me*.

He wants to take over the world! He wants to be the new Caliph, the Mahdi.
What are you going to offer him that will satisfy him?

BTW - what would *you* tell him? Would you shoot him without talking?

No, I would capture him and torture him to find out everything he knows.

One thing which I don't think you understand is that, for the Islamists,
they have been at war since the 7th century. Mohammed started the jihad
against the world, and these people believe with all their fibre that
war is ongoing. They never merely wanted the ME and former Arab lands -
Mohammed's goal was the WORLD united under Islam. They talk about the
Crusades (which were a *response* to Muslim conquests and massacres of
and Christians) as if they were a battle waged yesterday.

The history of the world is a history of their aggressions. When they
here and there, it is aggression, a demand for submission. When they
assassinate or bomb or stab, when they blow up subways or trains or
buildings, it is all a part of the war. This war began long before the
Coalition invaded Iraq; the terror has gone on for over 40 years.

Not every Muslim is a fanatic Islamist. It's just that you never hear
anything from the moderate Muslims.

EXACTLY! The Islamist have taken over Islam, and have cowed the moderates.
If the moderates do not speak up, and do not take action, then they are
siding with the radicals and allowing them to continue.

If THEY don't want freedom and
democracy, we can't force them to have it.

When you have millions turning out jubilantly to vote, with 60-75%
it's hard to make the case that it is "forced" upon them. "They are such
backward and ignorant savages, they probably prefer dictators that keep
in poverty, send their children to wars of aggression, rape and mutilate
their women, to keep free markets from them, to prohibit them from
or writing freely." You would deny people all the benefits of Western
civilization (which I don't see you spurning) because you have to stand
to tyrants to give people a chance. Forgive me, but that seems a bit
selfish. You were born into your wealth and freedom (relative to that
is enjoyed by most Arabs). How about sharing it?

Sharing, yes, but forcing them to adopt our western lifestyle and values
just doesn't work. Feeding them with OUR informations could yield better

Politics Of Education Piggy

Problem is - they don't want our education. Christians are not allowed to
proselytize. Western music and movies and magazines are forbidden. Maps
are used in schools which eliminate Israel. Children are taught to hate.

It seems so simple to you - just teach them. But they prevent this
education. They control access to the internet and TV and radio. They
imprison or kill teachers who try to teach the concepts you want taught.

These countries *are not* like Germany. The government controls the press
and TV and radio. They control what is taught in schools, and severely
limit access to computers and the internet. They are fed lies and
propaganda day in and day out, how Christians and the West want to enslave
or kill them, how Jews commit atrocities and drink the blood of Muslim
children in rituals. Many deny the Holocaust occurred.

In your world, you see everyone as basically good people who, if given a
chance, just want to get along. That's ain't the real world. Just like
muggers want your money and rapists want to hurt you, the threat from Islam
comes from people who do not share your values. They will gladly take
advantage of your naive beliefs, only to harm you more easily.

Open your eyes and listen to what they are saying, and observe what they are
doing. They mean every bit of it. It's all real. And with your growing,
unassimilated Muslim population, it is only a matter of time before they are
making unbearable demands on you.

Real world Pig


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