Re: Cuba's Healthcare an inspiration

By his cowardly snip-and-run tactics, PL all but concedes here that
his beloved embargo is indeed a form of genocide. As usual, he has no
effective counter-argument, so he just snips and runs. His lies about
the Cuban health care and their prison system are exposed here as
well… YET AGAIN!

On Mar 15, 3:05 pm, PL <pl.nos...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or just too
lame to bother with]

I have shown that Cuba has amongst the highest ration of prisoners per
1000 if one uses UN and Human rights data on prisoners.
What UN data???(snip)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/50/plenary/a50-663.htm

"Non-government sources???" Get real!(snip)

Nope.
fact.

Not according to the ICPS.



>http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/worldbrief/wpb_country......

Thanks for confirming you lied. (snip)

actually I did the opposite by providing the link the the UN websotehttp://www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/50/plenary/a50-663.htm

[snip]

You said you had "UN data." That was a lie. It turns out, it was just
an "estimate" (a fabrication?) -- "between 100,000 and 200,000
prisoners" -- from some mysterious "non-governmental sources" in
Cuba! In no way were UN personnel involved in compiling this "data."
The ICPS itself repudiated these numbers, dropping them from their
website and adopting the much lower numbers that establishes the US as
the world's number-one prison nation.

Again, since you snipped it for obvious reasons, other sources
include:

"Incarceration in the United States," Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

"Prison Nation," HRW, April 2009
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/04/09/prison-nation

Where the source itself says that the data is not based on published
data, just an "estimate" 4 years old of one man who has grudgingly been
increasing that estimate.

An expert in the field. (snip)

and such an "expert" that the website clearly marks the data as an
"estimate" showing it isn't of the same quality as the other data.

[snip]

And a number "between 100,000 and 200,000" from your di$$ident sources
is NOT an "estimate????" Get real! As always, you are simply grasping
at straws here.


I go with the lowest estimate (to be on the safe side) of 100,000.
That would mean 531/60*100= 885 prisoners per 100,000, more than the US..

Sadly for you, no one these days believes that bullshit.

actually, the article above confirms it


It "confirms" nothing.

Note the 545 figure as number of prisons (again the lowest estimate ) to
be found on internet (see:http://www.cubaverdad.net/list_prisons_in_cuba.htm)

But this is just your lying website,(snip)

Unlike you I have no "lying" website.

Isn't this your website? Unlike my website, it is full of lies. Given
your record here, we will need more than just your word on ANYTHING.


Even Amnesty uses elements of it.


Bullshit.


From the website you quoted.

(Different sources quote different totals. Two separate lists of
prisons, presented province by province, contain 545 and 582 prisons.)
Recent prison population trend (year, prison population total, prison
population rate)
2003 c.55,000 (c.487)

Thanks for confirming that ICPS numbers are MUCH lower than that of
your di$$ident "data" of 100,000 to 200,000 prisoners. Did they just
make this number up to please their political masters? Must be kind of
embarrassing for them criticizing Cuba's human right record like this
when they run the number one prison nation in the world!

"Even today, Cuba has one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the
world." Katie Couric reporting on NBC's Today, February 13, 1992
As the CIA itself confirms at their website(snip)
A lie. The CIA "confirms" nothing.
The fact that these mortal enemies of the Cuban people are posting
these stats (snip)
Just shows they use UN stats as they do everywhere without question.

I can see that it really pisses you off! (snip)

Yep.
Lies piss me off.

They are your stock-in-trade!


But do post the report of the latest UN review of the data.
Post the latest UN review of US or even Belgian data. (snip)
anyone has free access to the data.

Prove it. Show us even one independent review of US or Belgian data. (snip)

come to Belgium.

Will I get to see your medical records? Get real! But thanks for
confirming that you are unable to show us any UN review of US or
Belgian data.

Experts in Cuba like Dr. Thiede declared the data they got was useless

[snip]

On the contrary, he said "the stats office was quite rigorous." (See
below.)


HAVANA � An official Cuban newspaper questioned government claims of 2
per cent unemployment yesterday in the latest challenge to government
rhetoric begun under acting president Raul Castro more than a year ago..

[snip more of the same]

This is all about economic data, I have asked you hundreds of times to show us even one credible report that undermines Cuba health stats. And you come up empty handed every time -- as here.

(snip)

thanks for confirming Cuba falsifies data.


Only in your genocidal wet dreams, Mr. Lobbyist. But thanks for
confirming you STILL have no "proof" of your outrageous claims.


Medical:

fromwww.promedmail.orgarchivenumber 19970627.1390

"People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including
international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza".
Cuban
physicians have confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in
Cuba is politically influenced"

More creative editing, Mr. Lobbyist??? (snip)

nope.
quote with link.

You desperately hoped readers wouldn't go to the link to see for
themselves. When will you learn?


The very next sentence actually undermines these outrageous claims:

"However, lack of reporting may simply be an understaffing issue."

(snip)


What PL snipped for all too obvious reasons:

So, the author is clearly NOT buying into these claims. It is well
known that mild cases of dengue are outwardly indistinguishable from
ordinary flu. The cure is same, too -- bed rest, fluids, etc. Only
sophisticated (costly?) lab tests can tell them apart. Once again, we
see what a truly desperate liar you are!

Cuba is reducing employment in the sector, idiot.
They think they have too many staff.

Bullshit. But thanks for confirming that YOUR OWN source exposed your
self-serving lies here… YET AGAIN!

El Gobierno cubano denuncia el descontrol del sistema sanitario de la
isla que dificulta su buen funcionamiento. europapress.es (26 February 2010)http://www.europapress.es/latam/cuba/noticia-cuba-gobierno-cubano-den...


Nothing here to support your outrageous claims.

"WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office
for
the Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance
from the Cuban government."

Nothing here to support your outrageous claims (snip)

Just saying: Cuba controls the data and even Raul says they lie.


Only in your genocdial wet dreams, Mr. Lobbyist. Again, not even your
CIA colleagues are buying into your bullshit. Why should we?

Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
of the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University of Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent
three months in Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers
on Cuban health care. Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was
only able to get hold of the official statistical data and find them
not especially trustworthy.

Poor, desperate lobbyist…

Write to Dr. Thiede yourself(snip)


What PL snipped for all too obvious reasons:

Write to Dr. Thiede yourself -- if you dare, "Miss" Lobbyist. A
health
economist according to his online CV, he will confirm that he was
referring here to financial data. I myself wrote to him confirm the
above quote. He replied:

"Happy to exchange some views with you around Cuban health care
stats.
It's less data around morbidity and mortality where I see weaknesses
(actually the stats office seems to be quite rigorous), but the
expenditure data I find very obscure, especially in the course of
time."

While he had some difficulty with the financial (expenditure) data,
he
actually praises Cuba health stats (mortality rates, etc.) as "quite
rigorous." Yet another of your lies exposed!

I have his public statements and don't need your privatelies.


You have no "public statement" from him. Just a quote taken out of
context by one of your fellow travelers. I, on the other hand, have a
personal e-mail from him that exposes your lies and gives the proper
context for the quote.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link now broken)

Broken, indeed. This was not a posting by Dr. Thiede himself, but
someone like you, (snip)

You mean an academic on a university website, no?


I mean a liar with an obvious anti-Cuban political agenda.

"Controlling AIDS in Cuba"
New England Journal of Medicine (09/21/89) Vol. 321, No. 12, P.
Gordon, Antonio M.

[…]


[snip more of the same out-dated articles on AIDS]

(snip)

What PL snipped for obvious reasons:

Sadly for you, Cuba's HIV infection is now widely known to be about
1/10th that of the USA, and one of the lowest rate in the world. See,
for example:

"Cuba leads the way in HIV fight," BBC News Online, February 17, 2003
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2003/denver_2003/2770631.stm

Not "out-)dated" at all.

[snip]

Check the date: 1989. Like I said, out-dated. And subsequently
debunked by history. But thanks for confirming you lied.

But Juan A. Asensio, a trauma surgeon at the University of Miami and a
Cuban American who has studied the island's medical system, questions
first whether such figures can be trusted."http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/24669

Again, we will need a somewhat more credible source -(snip)

as you can't refute the facts you attack the messenger as usual.


If you don't have a credible, unbiased source, there is nothing to
"refute." Again, not even you CIA colleagues are buying into your
bullshit. That's gotta hurt!


Other examples of Cuban statistical data rejected by international
organizations:

On the economy:

Official Cuban daily goes critical, challenges govt's job statistics

[snip more of the same]

Economic stats again,(snip)

so Cuba is "only" lying about the economy and not the rest.

As we see above, while the economist, Dr. Thiede, had difficulties
with the financial data, he was quite impressed by the medical stats
office. And again, not even your CIA colleagues are buying into your
bullshit. Deal with it.


Education:

ARE CUBA'S EDUCATIONAL STATISTICS RELIABLE?
Benigno E. Aguirre and Roberto J. Vichot

"On the other, however,
some official statistics are plainly unreliable and invalid.
We have identified these scores and shown the
reasons for our incredulity. The puzzle for us is why
such systematic errors become part of an otherwise
reliable statistical record.

[snip]

This little propaganda piece (snip)


What the cowardly PL snipped for obvious reasons:

This little propaganda piece is based on data from the 1980's. Sadly
for you, a subsequent UNESCO study confirmed that Cuba's education
system, too, is the BEST in Latin America. See:

"First International Comparative Study of Language, Mathematics and
Associated Factors in Third and Fourth Grades," UNESCO, 1998

Some highlights:

- The first finding reveals that the results show differences among
countries, both in levels and distribution of test achievement. The
Cuban scores stand out significantly among countries in the region...
(p. 12)

- The test achievement of the lower half of students in Cuba is
significantly better than the test achievement of the upper half of
students in the countries that fall immediately behind Cuba. (p. 21)

deel with the facts.

[snip]

I just did. Read 'em and weep!

During that cold snap in mid-January, Cuban dissidents snuck out, via
internet, a report claiming that over forty patients had somehow frozen
to death in Cuba's Mazorra mental hospital
[snip]
TENS OF THOUSANDS have died from heat waves in Europe (snip)
Not in a hospital, Dan.
They should have been hospitalized, (snip)
and those that were survived.

Prove it. The fact is, tens of thousands of people died because of neglect and denial by the authorities. (snip)

post any proof of people dying of negligence in hospitals, Dan.

You made the claim, you prove it. The fact is, the entire social
system in Europe -- not just hospitals -- failed these people who died
in their tens of thousands.

Note: how many people were hospitalized in Cuba during the cold spell?

To my knowledge, no one else died as a result of the cold. (snip)

So people NOT in the care of the Cuban health system all survived.

Unlike the case of Europe, tens of thousands of people did not die in
Cuba as result of the failure of the social system.

that is where they took people to be safe from death.
In Cuba they actually dies in hospital.
A "detail" you would like people to forget.
See the pictures:http://www.penultimosdias.com/2010/03/02/los-muertos-de-mazorra/
How about some pictures of the tens of thousands of corpses piled up
Europe in August 2003?
Post any one you can find from people that dies in the care of
hospitals, Dan.

[snip]

They died in the streets and in their homes. What difference does it
make? (snip)

It says they should have gotten to a hospital where they would be safe.

STILL waiting for your proof, Mr. Lobbyist. You have not even shown
that there was even adequate capacity to handle all these cases -- the
tens of thousands that died, and, no doubt, many more who suffered
needlessly. What measures have they adopted since then? Or are they
still in denial?


But the story did not go away. Just last week, pictures of some of the
dead were snuck out of Cuba. They proved that hypothermia alone was not
the cause of death, any more than it was the cause of the death for the
prisoners at Dachau or Buchenwald. Horrific malnutrition and savage
beatings were plain to see for anyone genuinely interested in the causes.
[snip]
Again, could we have a somewhat more credible source?
The pictures are there.
They prove none of these outrageous claims.
Says you.

Says the pictures themselves. No proof of "horrific malnutrition and
savage beatings." Just more propaganda.

So these look to you like well fed people?http://www.penultimosdias.com/2010/03/02/los-muertos-de-mazorra/


They don't look well. They couldn't take care of themselves. That's
part of the reason they were hospitalized.

The Cuban health stories ignored or buried by the MSM would require an
entire 24-hour network broadcasting for five decades to disclose. Senor
Marzo Fernandez, an economist who, until defecting in 1996, served as
Secretary General of Castro's Ministry of Nutrition gets us started.
"The average height of Cubans has decreased by 8 centimeters in the past
25 years," he reported on Miami television.
[snip]
Ah.... Miami television! (snip)
I guess you hate the fact that the information blockade was broken.
Sadly for you, the truth about Cuba is getting out more and more these
days. Not even your CIA colleagues -- your partners in crime are buying into your propaganda here. Must be frustrating as hell for you. (snip)
More lies and insults.

Please post your "proof" that your CIA colleagues

(snip)

I have no CIA colleagues and the proof is easy: they just publish the UN
data all over.


And much to your chagrin, and much as your CIA colleagues would love
to, they don't seem to buying into your bullshit here. Must be
frustrating as hell for you.

This in a country that prior
to the glorious revolution enjoyed a lower infant-mortality rate and
more doctors and dentists per-capita than half of European countries,
plus a larger middle class than Switzerland.
Ever nostalgic for the "good old days" under your hero, the US-backed
dictator, Batista! They knew how to handle "troublemakers!"
A lie and insult.
Nope.
I supported the anti-Batista revolution.
I really doubt that.(snip)

What PL snipped for all too obvious reasons:

I really doubt that.(snip)

replied to and I challenge you again to show you have any quote of mine
supporting Batista.

[snip]

We have you tacitly supporting murder and torture, and actively
promoting genocide against Cuban children -- whatever it takes to
advance the interests of your political masters. Loyal foot soldier
that you are, you can't expect us now to believe you would have taken
exception to their support of your hero, Batista. Get real!


Cuba's IMR is
now LOWER than even that of their tormentors to the North -- the good
ol' US of A! Not bad considering nearly half a century of genocidal US
trade sanctions.
Another lie.
There are no "genocidal" sanctions as you yourself have confirmed by
failing to post even ONE quote from any reputable organization referring
to the trade sanctions as "genocide".
The facts as documented in reports recently released by Amnesty
International (my emphasis):
(snip)

What PL also snipped for all too obvious reasons:

The facts as documented in reports recently released by Amnesty
International (my emphasis):

(snip)

What PL also snipped for all too obvious reasons AGAIN!:

The facts as documented in reports recently released by Amnesty
International (my emphasis):

March 2009

"Amnesty International urges the US government to lift the nearly
five-
decade long economic and trade embargo against Cuba as it is
detrimental to the fulfillment of the economic and social rights of
the Cuban people. It OBSTRUCTS AND CONSTRAINS efforts by the Cuban
government to purchase essential medicines, medical equipment and
supplies, food and agricultural products, construction materials and
access to new technologies.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR25/002/2009/en/e7b1efe4-27...

September 2009

"The US embargo against Cuba is IMMORAL and should be lifted. It’s
preventing millions of Cubans from benefiting from vital medicines
and
medical equipment essential for their health."
"Because of the US embargo, Cuba faces SEVERE RESTRICTIONS in
importing medicines, medical equipment or technologies from the USA
or
from any US company abroad. The sanctions also limit other imports to
the island and restrict travel and the transfer of money."
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/president-obama-sho...
"Amnesty International calls on the US Congress to take, WITHOUT
FURTHER DELAY, the necessary steps towards lifting the economic,
financial and trade embargo against Cuba...

"The UN General Assembly has repeatedly CONDEMNED the US embargo as
contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and international law.
On 29 October 2008 the UN General Assembly passed a resolution
reiterating for the 17th time its call on the USA to end its embargo
against Cuba. That resolution was adopted with 185 votes in favour,
three against and two abstentions. The Inter-American Commission on
Human Rights has also reiterated its position regarding “the impact
of
such sanctions on the human rights of the Cuban people and,
therefore,
INSISTS THAT THE EMBARGO BE LIFTED.”

"[E]xports of food and agricultural products to Cuba remain regulated
by the Department of Commerce and require a licence for export or re-
export. The export of medicines and medical supplies continues to be
SEVERELY LIMITED....

“The RESTRICTIONS IMPOSED BY THE EMBARGO help to deprive Cuba of
vital
access to medicines, new scientific and medical technology, food,
chemical water treatment and electricity.”

"The provision of health care has suffered from the LIMITATIONS AND
RESTRICTIONS IMPOSED BY THE EMBARGO on the procurement of basic and
specialized medical equipment and chemical components needed for the
production of generic medicines....

"Cuba was UNABLE TO IMPORT nutritional products destined for children
and for consumption at schools, hospitals and day care centres. This
had an adverse effect on the health and nutritional status of the
population.

"Children’s health was also put at risk by a decision from syringe
suppliers to CANCEL an order for 3 million disposable syringes by
UNICEF’s Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization when it became
known that the units were destined for the implementation of the
programme in Cuba.

"The number of children suffering from heart conditions who are
waiting for appropriate treatment at a pediatric hospital has
increased after Cuba was unable to buy from the US-based companies
the
necessary medical equipment for their treatment. The companies
allegedly refused to negotiate with Cuba because of the RESTRICTIONS
SET BY THE US EMBARGO.

"LACK OF ACCESS to products manufactured by United States companies
such as St. Jude Medical, Boston Scientific and Amplatzer prevents
the
provision of proper care to seriously ill patients who need a
pacemaker, St. Jude prosthetic valves or septal occluders, forcing
their treatment with alternative, riskier surgical techniques.
"It has been IMPOSSIBLE TO PURCHASE a positron emission tomography/
computerized tomography (PET/CT) scanner, a state-of-the-art piece of
medical equipment needed for treatment that is made by only three
manufacturers worldwide, all unauthorized to negotiate with Cuba." The
impact of economic sanctions on health and health services is not
limited to difficulties in the supply of medicine. Health and health
services depend on functioning water and sanitation infrastructure, on
electricity and other functioning equipment such as X-ray facilities
or refrigerators to store vaccines. The financial burden and
commercial barriers have led to shortages or intermittent availability
of drugs, medicines, equipment and spare parts. It has also hindered
the renovation of hospitals, clinics and care centres for the
elderly.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR25/007/2009/en/51469f8b-73...
(PDF format)

And while I have asked you MANY times, it seems even you cannot deny
that such sanctions would lead the deaths and needless suffering of
children and other vulnerable groups. Deny it??? Hell, you are
COUNTING ON IT!!!

Note that Article 2c of the UN Genocide Convention states that the
crime of genocide includes, among other things, "deliberately
inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about
its physical destruction in whole or in part."
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/genocide.htm

Again, as Amnesty International has reported, “The restrictions
imposed by the embargo help to deprive Cuba of vital access to
medicines, new scientific and medical technology, food, chemical
water
treatment and electricity.” These cruel and inhumane sanctions can,
therefore, even be seen as a form of genocide under international
law!
Whatever it takes, right, Mr. Lobbyist?

again: just you abusing snippets.

[snip]

No "abusing snippets," Mr. Lobbyist. Just the truth.


I will ask you once again. Amnesty International recently reported
(links above) that your beloved embargo " OBSTRUCTS AND CONSTRAINS
efforts(snip)


What the cowardly PL snipped for all too obvious reasons:

I will ask you once again. Amnesty International recently reported
(links above) that your beloved embargo " OBSTRUCTS AND CONSTRAINS
efforts by the Cuban government to purchase essential medicines,
medical equipment and supplies, food and agricultural products,
construction materials and access to new technologies." And that it
is
also "preventing millions of Cubans from benefiting from vital
medicines and medical equipment essential for their health." Do you
deny that such sanctions would the lead to the deaths and needless
suffering of children and other vulnerable groups? (Watch now as PL
snips and runs away in terror from this question, as he has done
literally hundreds of times now!)

Amnesty claims no intent to kill and you have stated that Cuba has
plenty of other sources.

As predicted, the cowardly PL shit his pants, snipped and ran away in
terror! Even he cannot deny that such sanctions would the lead to the
deaths and needless suffering of children and other vulnerable groups.
Whatever it takes!

You won't get off the hook that easily, Mr. Lobbyist. As their report
shows, AI is fully aware that alternative sources were found for many
products that your political masters tried to block. Nevertheless,
they reported that the US regime still managed to " prevent millions
of Cubans from benefiting from vital medicines and medical equipment
essential for their health." (See link above.) Makes you proud, don't
it, Mr. Lobbyist? All your hard work finally paying off!


In the case of the US trade sanctions this is clearly not the case.
The USA is Cuba's 5th trading partner (2) and largest food supplier
(3).
[snipping the same tired old, Nazi-style rationalizations]
(snip)

What PL snipped for all too obvious reasons and refuses to address:

Please explain how killing one person

(snip)

What the cowardly PL snipped for all too obvious reasons and refuses
to address:

Please explain how killing one person and sparing another somehow
nullifies the crime. We know you can't. No amount of food for cash (or
any number of economic woes in Cuba) will let you off the hook for
"obstructing and constraining efforts by the Cuban government to
purchase essential medicines, medical equipment and supplies, food and
agricultural products, construction materials and access to new
technologies," as Amnesty International reported. These are just more
of your Nazi-style rationalizations.


The Us provides lots of food and medicines.

That does not let you of the hook for "obstructing and constraining
efforts by the Cuban government to purchase essential medicines,
medical equipment and supplies, food and agricultural products,
construction materials and access to new technologies," as AI put it.


Cuba can't pay for some and declines to buy them (as shown by the data).

[snipping more of PL's Nazi-style rationalizations]

The fact remains that your political masters continue to actively
"prevent millions of Cubans from benefiting from vital medicines and
medical equipment essential for their health."(See link above.)

(9) Genocide Watch is the Coordinator of the International Campaign to
End Genocidehttp://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutus/missionstatement.html
Listing of the Castro regime:http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Genocide_08_Genocides_and_Politic...
The sum-total of GW's work on Cuba is a unattributed, one-liner in a
silly little table at their website.
(snip)

just the result of their research you mean.

[snip]

Then where is the report of their findings?

(snip)

thanks for showing you cant refute any of it.


GW refuted it themselves, by removing those outrageous claims from
their own website! Face it, the only genocide here is in fact your
beloved embargo. Whatever it takes, right, Mr. Lobbyist?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://tiny.cc/CubaFAQ
(Note new address. Please update your bookmarks and links.)

PS: As an antidote to PL's venomous personal attacks on me, and to his
lies and evasions on everything from his lobbying exploits to the
international condemnation of his beloved embargo, see: "PL's same
tired old lies and evasions EXPOSED"
athttp://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/36c96cf26743ccca?hl=en
.

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