Re: Castro's Berlin Wall? -- Pure bullshit!!!

PL has failed miserably here to make his case that there is anything
comparable to the Berlin Wall in Cuba's case.

PL can't seem to get around the fact that, twice now, in 1980 and
1994-5, the Cuban government lifted restrictions on leaving by sea,
allowing thousands to emigrate from the island. Both times, the US
regime, seeing this as an "act of war," demanded that Cuba reinstate
these restrictions. They wanted MORE restrictions, not fewer. In 1995,
they also demanded Cuba take back all illegal immigrants intercepted
by the US Coast Guard. In exchange, the US regime agreed to accept
20,000 Cuban immigrants each year. No shots fired, as PL would have
you believe. They leave not in leaky boats, but on planes from Cuba in
a safe and orderly manner.

Earlier this year, PL inadvertently posted an AP article that showed
that these days, no one is prosecuted for simply trying to leave Cuba.
They wrote, "Cuba has agreed with the U.S. that most would-be migrants
stopped at sea by either nation will be returned to Cuba, which
promised not to prosecute them."

See PL's furious backpedaling (repeated again here), all to no avail,
in his thread, "7 Cubans head for US, reach only US mission," at:
http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/27401389431fcdcd?hl=en

So we have restrictions on sea travel mandated not by Cuba, but by the
US regime itself, and no prosecutions of those picked up at sea by
either Cuban or US Coast Guards. No shots fired. Nothing. What kind of
"Berlin Wall" is that, Mr. Lobbyist?

Grasping at straws, PL cites the costs of passports, etc. but he is
unable to make the case that it has been a significant deterrent to
emigration. He also cites additional social service requirements of
doctors and other trained professionals that apply to emigrate. I
think readers will agree that this is a more than reasonable response
to a problem that plagues the developing world today -- the rampant
poaching of skilled workers by advanced industrialized countries. PL
has no suggestions of his own to address this crisis of development.
He apparently couldn't care less if the poor get medical care or any
other services. Let them eat shit, right, Mr. Lobbyist?

As usual, PL has been reduced to mindlessly repeating his lies and
failed arguments here, desperately hoping that no one has noticed. If
you have nothing new and relevant to add, Mr. Lobbyist, do not expect
a reply from me on this matter.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://tiny.cc/CubaFAQ
(Note new address. Please update your bookmarks and links.)

PS: As an antidote to PL's venomous personal attacks on me here, and
his lies and evasions on everything from his lobbying exploits to the
international condemnation of his beloved embargo, see: "PL's same
tired old lies and evasions EXPOSED" at
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/36c96cf26743ccca?hl=en




On Dec 9, 1:54 pm, PL <pl.nos...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dan Christensen wrote:
On Dec 9, 4:33 am, PL <pl.nos...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or just too
lame to bother with]

More "snip, lie, insult and run" from Dan Christensen.

Note how cowardly hypocrite Dan Christensen desperately tries to avoid
addressing a very important question: what are the "regulations" that
rule travel for Cubans.

Twice the Cuban restrictions on sea travel were lifted -- in 1980 and
1994. Both times, the US regime went ballistic and demanded that they
be returned.
(snip)
Nope.
The "restrictions on sea travel" weren't lifted.
[snip]
Restrictions were lifted that created a massive headache for the US regime when thousands took advantage and left the island. Both times the regime demanded that the restrictions be returned. (snip)
Nope.

A blatant lie.

fact.

Enforcement was suspended and only people leaving on private boats via
one port only Mariel (1980) and dangerous rafts (1994) were allowed to
leave.

Even these changes were enough (snip)

these changes were calculated to relieve the pressure inside Cuba.

According to you then people with valid entry visa for another country
are not free to leave.
Unlike East Germany, tens of thousands of Cubans emigrate through
legal channels every year.
actually lots of East Germans were allowed to emigrate.
Not after the Wall was built in the late 50's. (snip)
False, as the graph you snipped shows.
Bullshit. Let's see your proof that "lots of East Germans" emigrated through legal channels. (snip)
Fact as the graph shows:http://www.v-g-t.de/karten3/u2/diag1.htm
Tens of thousands left each year.

"Between August 1961 and late 1988, despite the existence of the Wall
and a very restrictive travel regime, almost 600,000 GDR citizens
managed to emigrate to the FRG."

[snip]

Thanks for confirming you have no proof that "lots of East Germans"
emigrated (snip)

false.
I posted a graph and links.

What desperate Dan snipped as it exposed his lies in comparing Cuba with
East Germany:

Fact as the graph shows:http://www.v-g-t.de/karten3/u2/diag1.htm
Tens of thousands left each year.

"Between August 1961 and late 1988, despite the existence of the Wall
and a very restrictive travel regime, almost 600,000 GDR citizens
managed to emigrate to the FRG."

Changing Patterns of Immigration to Germany, 1945-1997 -- Rainer M�nz
and Ralf E. Ulrich - Research & Seminars | Migration Dialoguehttp://migration.ucdavis.edu/rs/more.php?id=69_0_3_0

That would be 600,000 in 27 years i.e. 600/27 so that is 22,000 a year,
comparable to what Cuba and the US have as an agreement

How is this relevant? Look it up yourself.
I know it very well.
[snip]
Then please explain how this is relevant? Do you have a point? Or is this just another diversion from yet another in a long, long line of your propaganda fiascoes here? (snip)-
It costs for passports and travel permit would be excessive, say two to
three months of salary that would be another way to block people from
traveling, no?

[snip]

Again desperate Dan Christensen runs from this fact.
Cubans can't go on a private trip abroad without being "invited" at high
expense by a foreigner.
Without invitation no Cuban can get a PVE (permit to travel abroad).
Just another of those "sea wall" regulations.

Again, tens of thousands of Cubans manage to emigrate every year --

(snip)

Like tens of thousands east Germans did.
Stop running coward and address the issues.

What desperate serial liar Dan Christensen snipped in despair:

I will help you some:

The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del pa�s,
"illegal exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217,
those caught trying to leave the country without the permission of the
government can be fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have
not used violence and up to eight years if force or intimidation is
used. In cases where passenger vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the
charge is usually one of pirater�a, "piracy." Under Penal Code Article
117, piracy carries a penalty of up to 20 years imprisonment, or a
possible sentence of death if there is loss of life or risk to the lives
of others.25

In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado
del Este.26

Under the 1995 U.S.-Cuba immigration agreement, the Cuban government
promised to "ensure that no action is taken against those migrants
returned to Cuba as a consequence of their attempt to emigrate
illegally."27 However, the Cuban government still has neither eliminated
nor amended Penal Code Articles 216 and 217 to reflect this commitment.
Although recently there appears to be a trend toward lighter penalties �
e.g., fines and/or house arrest � particularly in cases of first-time
offenders, Articles 216 and 217 are still used to punish people for
trying to leave the country without permission. That underscores the
fact that the threat of punishment continues to hang over the heads of
those who are returned to Cuba following attempts to leave without
authorization. The current status of the U.S.-Cuba immigration agreement
and the condition of Cubans who have been repatriated to Cuba are
discussed in Chapter XVI, Section C, of this report.

  See:http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/carib/1997-cuba.html#penal

PVE - Permiso de Viaje al Extranjero.

Does this mean that Cubans are totally unable to travel? No. Cubans
travel on official missions and can travel privately given a government
permit. These permits are referred to as the PVE (Permiso de Viaje al
Extranjero) commonly referred to as the "carta blanca".

The process starts with a "carta de invitaci�n", an invitation to a
Cuban by a foreign national (resident). This invitation needs to be made
in a Cuban consulate (abroad) and can no longer be made at a
"consultar�a jur�dica internacional" in Cuba since May 2007. In this
"letter" the foreigner formally invites the Cuban to visit him or her in
his country. After getting a passport the Cuban can then apply for the
PVE. The PVE is authorized (or not) based on the information the
governments holds about the person. A criminal record, bad marks in the
permanent record for any form of civil disobedience, a bad CDR report,
relatives that are involved in dissident activities, to be "bajo de FAR"
(of age to be called up for military service, but not having performed
it yet) which means basically from 16 onwards, to be "too young" and
even a further education (medical doctors) are common reasons to refuse
the permit to travel. There is no formal way to appeal the decision. It
is basically up to the government to allow or disallow travel. The PVE
allows a stay abroad of up to 11 months. The whole cost of the process
(invitation - passport - PVE) is over U$ 600.

Note that this includes the PVE for one month. For each additional month
(up to a total of 11) an extra fee needs to be paid. A Cuban that tries
to return to Cuba without a valid PVE (with paid extensions) in his
passport will actually be refused by international airlines as they are
held liable for the cost if they allow people with an invalid PVE on the
plane. The risk is that the person is not allowed to enter Cuba.

http://www.cubaminrex.cu/Consulares/inicio_consulares.asp

Freedom of movementhttp://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

Are US small planes allowed to land and pick up people in Cuba to take
them freely to the US?
All planes would have to get permission from Cuban air traffic control
to land and take off -- as in any country. I don't know about small
planes, but there are regularly scheduled commerical flights
(including US airlines) out of Cuba for emigrants and those visiting
abroad.
and Cubans are not free to board any of them, no?
They can if they are emigrating -- as tens of thousands of Cubans do
every year. Or if they have an exit visa to visit another
country.' (snip)
You mean if they have the permission from the government to travel or
emigrate.
[snip]
Tens of thousands do so every year. Again, what is your point? Contrary to your lies, no one is shooting at them. They just get on a plane in Havana. (snip)
after they get invited abroad you mean in the case of travel, after
marriage or family reunion,...
But not freely, isn't that true Dan?

Again, I don't recall any accounts of would-be emigrants or even
visitors being held back by the fees. �snip)

as relatives paid.

But tell us: how can a Cuban citizen travel abroad without help^?

He needs and "invitation" to get a Permit to Travel Abroad.
A passport costs the equivalent of 2 to 3 months salary
The invitation - if the Cuba pays it - the equivalent of 8 months of salary
Carta de invitaci�n
Embajada de Cuba en Finlandia > Servicios consulares > Carta de invitaci�nhttp://emba.cubaminrex.cu/Default.aspx?tabid=13227
The carta blanca (PVE) equivalent to 5 months of salary
The extension: 1.5 months of salaray per month
The plane ....

Overall: the equivalent of a couple of years of salary.

Doctors and other
professionals with a US entry visa may still have to complete their
social service obligations before leaving.
and even then it is still a discretionary decision of the regime, no?
If a doctor has done its three years of service after studies and has
worked for the regime for ten years how can he get out and what are his
prospects: how long will it take?
I understand he or she will have to do additional social service. Not
an unreasonable demand.
What the cowardly PL snipped for obvious reasons:
(snip]

What the cowardly PL snipped for obvious reasons:

(snip)
actually exposed as the hypocrite statement it was.

a breach of contract.
[snip]
Very evasive, (snip)
Nope.
fact.
Two to three years of "social service" after studies is what Cubans
signed up for.

STILL very evasive.(snip)

Nope.
to the point exposing your lies.

As lots of university graduates medical doctors have to perform a number
of years of free service for the state. Doctors had to perform 3 years
as service in "payment" for their education.

Cuba - Act No. 1254 respecting social service and its regulations issued
by Decree No. 3771 of 1974 provided that Cuban citizens who graduate in
higher education or as middle-level technicians or through regular
courses for primary school teachers, are obliged to perform social
service (for the duration of three years), in accordance with the
planning and priorities for development work laid down by the
Government. Unjustified refusal to perform social service entails
temporary or permanent disqualifications from exercising his or her
profession, which is recorded in the workbook of the person concerned.
The Government has indicated that the provisions relative to temporary
or permanent disqualification and everybody knows.

http://www.ilo.org/public/english/standards/relm/ilc/ilc96/pdf/rep-ii...

This system has worked for years. Being a doctor (or other university
graduate) was no real impediment to leave the country once one had
completed the 3 years service.

 From 1999 onwards the attitude changed as the Cuban regime had started
to "rent out doctors" to other countries (1) and NGO's. The Cuban
government realized that its doctors had a "commercial value" and that
allowing them to emigrate (even after completing their obligations to
the government) would reduce Cuba's "earning power". Doctors were sent
(against payment) to countries like Venezuela (doctors for oil),
Zimbabwe, South Africa, Namibia, ... The Cuban regime tried to deny
these deals (especially in the case of Venezuela), but was soon
disproved. The whole industry of renting out doctors brings in more than
U$ 750 million annually for Cuba. "I think medical services will have
replaced tourism as our most important source of revenue in 2005," said
Garcia, who directs the Cuban Economy Study Center at Havana University. (2)

1999: MINSAP regulation 54.14 (3)
"Moreover, since 1999, Cuban physicians have not been able to leave Cuba
with proper documentation and permits according to the MINSAP regulation
Number 54.14 According to this regulation, medical doctors and dentists
must serve 3 to 5 years in designated areas in the island of Cuba before
they are considered for a permission to leave the island. In this
manner, Cuban physicians are blatantly discriminated and made to suffer
higher penalties than the rest of the professionals. "

Note that it says "considered" for permission. that permission is in no
way guaranteed and this process itself can again take years.

"Resolution 54 denies exit permits to medical professionals until they
have performed 3 to 5 years of service in their profession after
requesting permission to travel abroad."

" In February a group of 31 medical professionals sent a letter to the
authorities protesting the Government's decision not to allow them to
proceed with their legal emigration. These medical professionals were
granted immigrant status by other countries, but the Ministry of Health
had refused to grant them permission to secure exit permits. The doctors
made the document public. The Government responded by terminating their
employment, relocating them to remote and undesirable health care
facilities, or ostracizing them." (4)

In 2002 health minister Damodar Pe�a Penton said that doctors who want
to emigrate should face stiffer requirements.

"The health department requires that doctors who request permission to
emigrate spend three to five years at posts specified by authorities in
the region where the medial practioners live.
We have to increase the strength of the evaluations of the re-settled
doctors and our control over them," warned Pe�a during a meeting with
regional medical directors, according to a source who sought anonymity.
A poor evaluation of a doctor who seeks to emigrate means that he or she
has to spend more work time before leaving." (5)

The current situation is one of total dependence of doctors on the
"goodwill" of the Cuban government. The despair this creates is clear.
Marriages brake up and people take to leaving Cuba in an illegal manner
as this doctor did on the "taxi boat".(6)

Refusing to go abroad as a doctor can also lead to sanctions under Cuban
law:

Cuba - section 220 of the Labour Code: a sentence of imprisonment of
from six months to two years may be imposed on a person who, by breach
of the duties placed on him by his office, employment, occupation or
profession in a state economic unit (particularly of his duties relating
to the observance of the standards or standard-setting instructions and
other rules and instructions concerning technological discipline) causes
harm or substantial prejudice to the production output or to the
rendering of services by the
unit or to its equipment, machines, machinery, tools or other technical
devices. The Committee has noted the information provided by the
Government in its report (including the documents annexed to the
report), to the effect that any sentences of correctional labour imposed
for violations of this provision are subject to the person sentenced
being willing to perform such labour.http://www.ilo.org/public/english/standards/relm/ilc/ilc96/pdf/rep-ii...

In the recent rumored reforms again Cuban doctors are excluded from the
reforms. they will still need exit visas.

Source: El pais: Cuba rebaja las restricciones para viajar, April 18,2008..
Freedom of movement (9 December 2009)
 http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

"Cuba has agreed with the U.S. that most would-be migrants stopped at
sea
by either nation will be returned to Cuba, which promised not to
prosecute them."
so people that are caught in Cuba can be prosecuted
The author said just the opposite, idiot!
Nope.
A shameless lie -- as readers can see for themselves. (snip)
fact.

Still in denial, I see.

Nope.
fact

the author said that people were only returned if Cuba promised not to
prosecute them.
that means that prosecution is the rule.
Bullshit. There is no suggestion here that anyone is prosecuted. You are grasping at straws. As always. (snip)
so why does Cuba need to promise no prosecutions will follow.

Again, as readers can see for themselves, the author makes no
suggestion here (snip)

false.
he says law had to be suspended.
that means they otherwise would be applied.

Why would Cuba have to promise it wouldn't prosecute them unless it did so
as a rule?
[snip]
At the time of the 1995 agreement, it was NOT the rule.
(snip)

a lie.

The truth.

a lie.
the law was never revoked nor suspended.
Just enforcement was held back.

it has been the rule since the 1960's.

Again, not in the months prior(snip)

false as only people on flimsy rafts were allowed to leave.
No boats in Mariel.
No Free exit via planes.

The facts that expose Dan Christensen's lies about people not being
prosecuted for illegal exit:

[snip]

Again, already debunked

(snip)

never "debunked".

The facts that expose Dan Christensen's lies about people not being
prosecuted for illegal exit:

http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_thread/thread/b...

which is the link to the full thread were your lies are exposed

The CCDHRN estimated that at year's end approximately 300 citizens were
serving sentences or awaiting trial on this charge, which ordinarily
carries a term of 15 to 20 years' imprisonment. Under the terms of the
1994 U.S.-Cuba Migration Accord, the government agreed not to prosecute
or retaliate against migrants returned from international or U.S.
waters, or from the U.S. Naval Station at Guantanamo, after attempting
to emigrate illegally if they had not committed a separate criminal
offense. However, in practice many would-be migrants experienced
harassment and discrimination such as fines, expulsion from school, job
loss, and detention in prison.http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/65496/u-s-2008-human-rights-report-...

Multan a periodista por salida ilegalhttp://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/dec06/20a3.htmhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27508

Opositor en prisi�n por salida ilegal del pa�s
�lvaro Yero Felipe
22 de octubre de 2007http://www.bitacoracubana.com/desdecuba/portada2.php?id=5660

Eduardo Gamboa Su�rez es natural de Camag�ey y cumple una condena de 25
a�os de c�rcel por "traici�n a la patria y salida ilegal del territorio
nacional."

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y07/may07/07a3.htmhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/30867

REPRESION
Encarcelados opositores por intento de salida ilegal del pa�shttp://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/dec06/07a5.htmhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27215

A �lvaro le fue impuesta una multa de 1000 cuotas de a peso, por salida
ilegal del pa�s.

Poco tiempo despu�s, se person� un oficial en su casa. Le tra�a otra
multa, seg�n �lvaro, esta vez de 3000 pesos, por no pedir permiso para
salir por mar.

http://www.miscelaneasdecuba.net/web/article.asp?artID=8632http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/28538

Hern�ndez Valdez, quien ha estado en prisi�n en dos ocasiones por salida
ilegal de territorio nacional, y bajo vigilancia en el presente, seg�n
la advertencia policial fue acusado, as� como el resto de los detenidos,
de reunirse con elementos anti-sociales y de estar desvinculados
laboralmente.

En la actualidad miles de j�venes permanecen en las prisiones de la Isla
bajo similar cargo, cumpliendo hasta un m�ximo de cuatro a�os bajo la
negativa de "no estudio, no trabajo"

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/oct06/27a1.htm
CubaVerdad : Message: Policia abre expediente de peligrosidad contra
jovenes batabanoenseshttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/26434

Detienen a Grupo de J�venes por Intento de Salida Ilegal del Pa�s
2006-11-16
Mario Hechavarria Driggs, periodista independiente

La Habana, 14 de Noviembre.- Un grupo de cinco j�venes, todos vecinos
del poblado de Santiago de las Vegas ubicado en el municipio capitalino
de Boyeros; fueron arrestados el pasado 12 de Noviembre en horas
tempranas de la ma�ana, por agentes de la polic�a pol�tica y acusados de
preparar un intento de salida ilegal del pa�s por un punto al norte de
Provincia Habana conocido como Boca de Mariel.

Los j�venes se nombran Diosdado Fiol Hern�ndez, Julio Teofilo Panda,
L�zaro Machado Fonseca, Viv�an Machado y Ram�n D�az. Los mismos se
encuentran detenido en la Primera Unidad de la Polic�a en el municipio
Boyeros y se conoce por fuentes que prefieren el anonimato que ya fueron
multados con 3000 pesos cada uno por el intento de salida ilegal y el
decomiso de la embarcaci�n.

Hasta el momento se conoce que los j�venes segu�an bajo investigaci�n.

http://www.miscelaneasdecuba.net/web/article.asp?artID=7746http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/26797

  From HRW:
El gobierno continu� procesando a personas por "salida ilegal" si
intentaban salir de la isla sin obtener primero un permiso oficial para
ello. Dicha autorizaci�n se negaba a veces arbitrariamente o depend�a de
la compra de un costoso permiso de salida. En junio, Pedro Riera
Escalante, un ex c�nsul cubano y agente de inteligencia en Ciudad de
M�xico, fue condenado por un tribunal militar a seis a�os de prisi�n por
salir ilegalmente de Cuba con documentos falsos y por sobornar a
funcionarios para permitir su salida. Riera Escalante hab�a roto las
relaciones con su gobierno y pedido asilo pol�tico en M�xico, pero las
autoridades mexicanas lo deportaron en octubre.

Cuba - Human Rights Watch Reporte 2001http://www.cubanet.org/ref/dis/04160201.htm

  From the 2003 report from HRW:
El gobierno sigui� enjuiciando a personas por "salida ilegal" si
intentaban salir de la isla
sin autorizaci�n oficial previa. En ocasiones, las autoridades denegaron
arbitrariamente
dicha autorizaci�n o requirieron la compra de un costoso permiso de salida.http://www.procubalibre.org/informes/pdf/150103_informeanual.pdf

How about Amnesty International 1998:

Juan Carlos Herrera Acosta (aged 32)

      * Place of Detention: Prisi�n Combinado de Guant�namo, Combinado de
Guant�namo Prison, Guant�namo province.
      * Date of detention: 26 September 1997
      * Charge: "salida ilegal", "illegal exit"
      * Sentence: 5 years' imprisonment
      * State of health: Juan Carlos Herrera Acosta is said to be in a
poor state of health, suffering from high blood pressure [hipertensi�n
arterial] and a heart disorder [cardiopat�a].

Miguel Eumelio S�nchez Valiente (aged 62)

      * Place of Detention: Prisi�n Combinado del Este, Combinado del
Este Prison, La Habana province.
      * Date of detention: 31 August 1992
      * Charge: "espionaje", "espionage", "salida ilegal", "illegal exit"
      * Sentence: 10 years' imprisonment
      * State of health: Miguel Eumelio S�nchez Valiente is reportedly
suffering from lower back pain ["sacrolumbagia"].

Cuba: Political prisoners in need of medical attention - Amnesty
International

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250401999?open&of=....

in this regard, the Inter-American Commission was also informed that
Leonel Gregorio Pupo Rodr�guez, V�ctor Pupo Rodr�guez, Francisco
Guti�rrez P�rez, Julio Regalado Garc�a, and Jorge Luis Chau Mu�iz have
been confined in the Combinado Sur prison in Matanzas since December
1999, without being brought to trial.  These five persons decided to
declare that they were on a hunger strike, as a way of calling for the
regime to bring them before a court.  The Office of the Attorney General
of the Republic of Cuba is preparing a case against them for the alleged
crime of "illegal exit."

Annual Report 2001 - Chapter IV(a) Cubahttp://www.cidh.oas.org/annualrep/2001eng/chap.4a.htm

An immigration counsellor at the Canadian Embassy in Havana provided the
following information in correspondence sent to the Research Directorate
on 22 May 2001.

If a Cuban national has been granted an exit permit, he/she will be
allowed to stay outside of Cuba for a period of eleven (11) months. If
the person overstays, he/she will lose his/her Cuban residence. Cuban
citizenship is never lost. If the person loses the residence, his/her
properties, job and food rations will be lost as well unless a special
permit is given by Cuban immigration.

If the Cuban traveled to Canada on an official visit for a short period
of time and he does not come back after this period of time, he is
considered as having deserted, unless an authorization to this effect
was obtained from the workplace or other governmental services.
Desertion is effectively a very serious matter and can result in various
forms of punishment such as loss of travel possibilities for family members.

If the person traveled outside of Cuba as visitor and requests refugee
status but returns to Cuba before eleven (11) months, as far as we know,
no punishment other than probable loss of job will be applied by the
Cuban authorities. There seems to be no incarceration for such cases.
For example, all those people who attempt to leave Cuba by raft, if they
fail and are sent back, are normally back on the street either the
following day or after a few days to allow for some administrative
documentation and often try to repeat rapidly after. There seems to be
no serious punishment for this.

Of course we cannot verify with officials what policy on this is and we
can only provide an opinion. Also there are various considerations that
can result in different actions taken by authorities on what appears to
be similar cases. But, in general, we reiterate that to our knowledge,
the punishment is not one of incarceration but possible job loss and
various minor administrative annoyances.

The US Committee for Refugees reported the following in its 2000 Country
Report on the treatment of Cubans who have illegally exited and who have
subsequently returned to Cuba from the US:

As part of the migration agreement [the 1994 migration agreement between
Cuba and the United States], Cuba formally agreed not to punish Cubans
for their illegal departure whom the U.S. Coast Guard interdicts and
returns. The Cuban penal code (Articles 216 and 217) makes "illegal
exit" a crime punishable by up to three years' imprisonment, if the
attempt to leave is nonviolent, or up to eight years if it involves
violence or intimidation. Cuba imposes more severe penalties in cases
involving hijacking. Although the Cuban authorities have imposed long
prison sentences in some cases, at other times they have briefly
detained returnees and then released them.

While the agreement is supposed to prevent direct retaliation for the
illegal departure that immediately precedes the Coast Guard interdiction
and return, it does not prevent Cuba from prosecuting the returnee on
other grounds, including previous attempts at illegal exit. Cuba
sometimes punishes returnees without actually prosecuting them for
illegal departure, most commonly by denying them employment.

The agreement allows U.S. diplomatic officials to monitor the treatment
of persons returned to Cuba by the United States. It offers no
protection to rafters or rejected asylum seekers returned to Cuba by
other countries (Jan. 2001).

Dan Kane, a spokesperson for the Immigration and Naturalisation Service
(INS) in Washington, was cited as saying in a 29 August 2000 El Nuevo
Herald report that since the migration accords between the US and Cuba
have been signed, the US authorities have visited a great number of
individuals repatriated, some of whom have reported of being subjected
to [translation] "extreme harassment" upon their return.

Human Rights Watch World Watch Report 2001 reported that Cubans who
attempted to leave Cuba without official permission were prosecuted for
"illegal exit" in 2000 (Dec. 2000). The report further added that the
Cuban authorities had "denied arbitrarily" the permission for some
Cubans to leave the island unless they purchased an expensive exit
permit (ibid.).

In January 2000, CubaNet News, a non-partisan and not-for-profit
organization that is dedicated to the promotion of an independent press
in Cuba, reported that, based on statistics kept by the Cuban-based
Information Office for Human Rights (Oficina de Informaci�n de Derechos
Humanos, OIDH) and the National Coordination of Political Prisoners and
Former Political Prisoners (Coordinadora Nacional de Presos y Ex Presos
Pol�ticos, CNPEPP), 60 political prisoners were detained for reasons
related to illegal exit (14 Jan. 2000).

In August 2000, El Nuevo Herald reported that a non-official Cuban human
rights group, Commission of Human Rights and National Reconciliation
(Comisi�n de Derechos Humanos y Reconciliaci�n Nacional, CDHRN), had
received numerous complaints of harassment in the past five years from
individuals who had attempted to leave the island illegally and had been
subsequently captured before arriving in the US (29 Aug. 2000).
According to the Commission's president, Elizardo S�nchez Santacruz, all
persons who were returned to Cuba were subjected to police surveillance
and an undetermined number of these individuals lost their employment
(ibid.). S�nchez related the situation of Fernando Salas Pell�n, who
after being returned to Cuba, had lost his teaching position permanently
and was barred indefinitely from teaching elsewhere in the national
education system for attempting to illegally exit Cuba (ibid.).

Several sources in 2000 and 2001 reported the situation of Cubans who
had left or who had attempted to leave the island upon return to the
country.

CubaNet News reported that Ar�stides Ram�n Salgado Corrales and his
wife, Mar�a Caridad Garc�a Tavera, were serving sentences of six and
five years respectively in the province of Guant�namo for illegally
exiting the country (16 Feb. 2000).

The Independent Press Bureau of Cuba (Bur� de Prensa Independiente de
Cuba), an organization that disseminates information received from
independent journalists working in Cuba, reported that seven youths were
fined between 10,000 and a thousand pesos on 1 August 2000 for
attempting to leave the island illegally (9 Sept. 2000). The youths were
also sentenced to 25 days in prison (ibid.).

Rolando Vald�s Cruz, a medical doctor, was detained at the Valle Grande
prison after he and 31 other people attempted to leave Cuba by boat on 1
June 2000 (El Nuevo Herald 18 Sept. 2000).

Humberto L�pez, member of the Cuban Foundation for Human Rights
(Fundaci�n Cubana de los Derechos Humanos), and his sons were arrested
on two different occasions and held in detention for several hours in
Mor�, Ciego de Avila province, for allegedly attempting to leave the
country illegally (CubaNet News 19 Sept. 2000). After his detention,
L�pez, described in the report as a [translation] "peaceful opponent of
the Cuban regime" lost his job for not respecting the Cuban socialist
state and became the object of systematic harassment by the Cuban
political police (ibid.).

Yunier Figueredo was sentenced to two years of correctional service with
internment (trabajo correccional con internamiento) for illegal exit
(CubaNet News 21 Dec. 2000).

The Cuba Free Press Project, an organization that publishes reports from
the Cuban Professional Independent Journalists and Writers, reported in
January 2001 the situation of Randy Cabrera, a political prisoner who
had completed a 12-year sentence for illegal exit and who then was
re-sentenced to another 14 year imprisonment for reaffirming his intent
to leave the country (17 Jan. 2001).

In April 2001, CubaNet News reported that [translation] "repression
against the population and against human rights activists in particular
is on the decline," and that illegal exit is no longer considered a
political crime (2 Apr. 2001).

This Response was prepared after researching publicly accessible
information currently available to the Research Directorate within time
constraints. This Response is not, and does not purport to be,
conclusive as to the merit of any particular claim to refugee status or
asylum. Please find below the list of additional sources consulted in
researching this Information Request.

UNHCR | Refworld | Cuba: Update to CUB31690.E of 14 June 1999 and
CUB30409.E of 6 November 1998 on the treatment of persons who have
overstayed their exit visas, illegally exited or made a refugee claim
abroad and returned to Cuba; whether such individuals would be
prohibited to work or receive food rations (6 June 2009)http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,QUERYRESPONSE,CUB,4562d94e2,3...

THE STANDARD REPLY TO DAN'S LIES AND PERSONAL INSULTS.

again Dan Christensen shows what a hypocrite liar he is.
He is the one doing the "attacking" with his lies and slander.
As all can see I only post this piece that exposes his lies when he
has started his slanderous attacks.
That by the way is in general within a couple of exchanges on the
facts of the case involved as by then he is so stuck that he has to
resort to lies and insults.

Please note that lies combined with personal attacks only destroy
your credibility, Dan.

Dan Christensen knows I am not a lobbyist and that it is all just a
slander campaign.
As a good follower of Goebbels he keeps repeating his lies in the hope
that something will stick and that he maybe can mislead some people
that
don't know what he is all about.
Desperate Dan Is doing his bit in the slander campaign of the "rat
pack"
he is associated with. The contribution of his pals at the Centre
Ernesto Che Guevara in this group recently just shows what Dan and his
cronies are all about: lies, insults, slander and intimidation.

Actually: given your actions in the past Dan you fit the lobbyist
profile a lot closer.

You contact people in support of the Cuban regime and with the aim to
have them change the content of their website or change public
statements. You even pose as a "journalist" or "researcher" while
doing so.
The fact that you have been utterly unsuccessful at it and that only
your website suffered the removal of pages just shows what a bad
lobbyist you are.

Your Club Med, lobbying, CIA lies are exposed again

Links to the threads Dan produces his "lobbyist" misquotes from and
the exposure of his lies by others:

For those that want to see the full thread and the complete messages
in their context (which Dan Christensen desperately hopes nobody will
as it will expose his lies), here is a link to the threads concerned.http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_thread/thread/...http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_thread/thread/5...

To Dan Christensen's great frustration his lies by now have been
exposed by various other people in other threads like:http://groups.google.be/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/ac34bd501ab58b97?d...http://groups.google.be/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/848321c82da3bbda

Dan Christensen lied when he claimed I had stated that I had been at
Club Med in Varadero - a hotel he tried to depict as a sleazy sex
resort - to "lobby" people.
Just one example:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/4b7720708da65ee0?...
Dan Christensen even suggested the whole trip was paid for by the CIA
thereby accusing Belgian officials of not only sexual impropriety, but
also of active corruption.
You see: Dan Christensen just doesn't know when to stop lying and gets
caught up in his "cloak and dagger" childish fantasies.
His lies are so over the top that it all become a big joke that people
can easily see though.
Here is one example of how serial liar Dan Christensen was exposed.http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/848321c82da3bbda?...

The lies of Dan Christensen about me that were exposed:
- his lie about me playing golf to "lobby": exposed. Dan Christensen
had to admit there were no quotes to support any of that.
- his lie about singles resorts and schmoozing: exposed as various
people stated that it is merely a family resort that even had a circus
school for children
- his lie about me being in Varadero: exposed as Dan Christensen had
to admit I never said I was there
- his lie that it were all "CIA junkets" exposed as Dan Christensen
ran like hell when he realized that this lie could expose him to legal
sanctions
- his lie that I had "self-confessed" anything: exposed by people that
put the snippets Dan Christensen abusively  posts in context (as shown
in this message)
All Dan Christensen's lies have been exposed by various people.

as I said comrade
Dan: whenever you post your lies about me I post the truth about you.
Your record of lies, innuendo, insults and support of human rights
abuses discredits you.
All shame you brought on yourself by your attitude and actions.

The exposure of the "lobbyist" lie in further detail.

Dan Christensen's abuse of misquotes has been exposed over and over
again. He just aped the lie of another apologist that dropped that
specific lie very quickly. The guy is indeed smarter than stupid Dan.
When  Dan Christensen  tried to come up with his own "new and
improved"  version of the lie he fell flat on his face.
He claimed I had been "lobbying" people In Geneva while his Rat Pack
pal "cuba libre" that stalked me  then showed from an IP address from
which I had posted something that I was in Santiago de Cuba at the
time.  One Rat Pack member exposing another's lies with the result of
his cyber stalking. Ironic.

Dan's other exposed false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?...

Again it is clear what a pathetic loser Dan Christensen is.

Below you will find what is behind Dan Christensen's slanderous
campaign: facts he can't deny.

- Frustration

I exposed Dan Christensen as a fraud in this group years ago when I
blew his "cover". In SCC he tried to portray himself as an
"independent
interested party" with no political agenda.
When I came across a blatantly different reply to a similar question
in a Stalinist e-group to which I had been invited I posted it to show
his lying hypocrisy.
Since then he has been pissed as hell as it undermined his lying
propaganda effort to mislead "those in the background" (his own words,
those that didn't have "local knowledge". He himself admitted in the
same e-group that propagandist like him can never "convince" those
with "local knowledge". In frequent exchanges he got some mad he often
forgot to keep up the pretense and made him show his hand and true
nature:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of  these extraordinary
measures. In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in
the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=3D3Den&lr=3D3D&ie=3D3DUTF-8&selm=3...

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means.  At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia.  Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are
morally justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=3D3Den&lr=3D3D&ie=3D3DUTF-8&selm=3...

That meant he was exposed a the hypocrite liar he is. It showed that
the false claims he made about others (support of genocide, torture,
abuses, ..) in fact only applied to him.

I have also frequently exposed his lies about facts and people in SCC.

Dan Christensen once claimed:
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?...

Mr. Smith's  own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,''
Smith
said during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the
United States: Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and
Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.http://www..miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.
Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

Then there is the issue of his lying website: acting with a third
person I had pages removed (for violations of law, slander, ...), I
have shamed him in to changing it on
various occasions (adding links that would then expose his lies,
remove lying caption from pictures, ...) and I have in general exposed
the lies on it (on Amnesty International for example)

What Dan claimed on his website (the misquote):
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html
now moved to:http://www3.sympatico.ca/danchristienses/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one Dan didn't give until I shamed him in
to it)http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=3D3DENG-CUB

where the only thing Amnesty international asks for "immediately and
unconditionally" is the release of political prisoners.

Quote:

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience
(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.

" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."
end of quote

- Dogmatic hatred.

Dan Christensen is a hard-line Stalinist. His first steps in SCC were
to defend Stalin and in other forums he has praised "workers
democracy" under Stalin.
He has admitted that he is ready to fight to the last Cuban (from his
comfortable armchair in Canada) for his cause.
By posting the reports from the international press, human rights
organizations and Cuban independent journalists I have exposed his
propaganda as a lie. That makes the man wild with rage.
As he like to see himself as the "victim" (he once claimed he was
being censored in SCC) he therefore lashes out at people claiming that
those that contradict him are "CIA" agents (as if the CIA would care
about a third rate liar as Dan) and professional "lobbyists" probably
to make himself feel that he is "important" and to explain away his
complete propaganda failure (portraying himself as "overcome by
unsurmountable institutional odds").

- Personal hate and the "rat pack"

Dan has suffered the  trauma of having part of his website remove
after a long battle over the personal attacks and falsifications he
had posted there.
The frequent exposures of his lies and hypocrisy only fueled the
personal hatred.
Dan ganged up with various other propagandists that people that have
been attacked by them refer to as the "rat pack". I have been the
target of the lies and slanderous insults of this "rat pack".
They specialize in online slander (from posting private information,
attacking their business or businesses they are associated with,
inciting others to harass people, over accusing people of being "CIA
agents" or "lobbyists" to the worst things one can imagine) and direct
harassment (phone calls, letters, letters with razor blade or white
powder, loitering in front of people's houses,.. up to death threats
in France).
All they succeeded in doing was to dramatically increase traffic to a
website I participate in (www.cubaverdad.net) and to suffer the
consequences of their slander.
Dan Christensen had part of his website removed. The Centre Che in
France had their complete website removed and their "secretary" known
here as "cubalibre" real name Fran�ois Valy was sentenced to 6 months
in
jail for a whole series of abuses (including racism). A Spanish
"subsidiary" of the rat pack still has a surprise coming.
All because of their lies were exposed.

But then in the end this is what it boils down to: those that don't
have rational arguments find themselves exposed as the liars they are.
When that happens all they have left are the old
slander tactics: they attack the people that expose their lies in the
hope that they can intimidate them.
If Dan Christensen felt he had any chance to convince people directly
he would try to do so by posting facts and arguing facts.
He is reduced to snipping, posting the same snippets over and over
again, lies and slander.
As long as he and the rest of the "rat pack" (and their hangers on)
are reduced to that they expose" their own failure as Dan Christensen
does here every time.
Fine by me.

PL

"The Cuban government is based on lies and cheap propaganda. That is
why it is afraid of words and the truth."
Raul Rivero, April 2006, University of Sevilla

.

Relevant Pages