Re: More Democrats oppose lifting Cuban travel ban

Dan Christensen wrote:
(PL is going down in flames,(snip)

Nope.
I am exposing your lies/

What Dan snipped:

Trying to abuse some out of context misquoted snippets from the three only dissidents you seem to know you try to make people believe all would support your castro dictated lies.
In fact they don't. They all want an immediate end to the abuses by the regime - which you support.
You don't know the names of the rest of the dissident community, even not the name of the leader of the party affiliated with the socialist international movement.
As usual you are exposed as the desperate liar you are


On Nov 18, 5:21 am, PL <pl.nos...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or just too
lame to bother with]


Like:

By the way; do you deny that openly supporting the trade sanctions can land a person in jail in Cuba under these repressive laws:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm

When Amnesty wants to say: "immediate and unconditional", it does so:

What Dan claimed on his website (the misquote):
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one Dan didn't give until I shamed him in
to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=3D3DENG-CUB

where the only thing Amnesty international asks for "immediately and
unconditionally" is the release of political prisoners.

Quote:

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience
(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.

" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."
end of quote

"We request that you take a first step, above all for justice and also
in good faith toward the people of Cuba by lifting, unconditionally,
the embargo against Cuba in food and medicines."
Oswaldo Payáhttp://www.lexingtoninstitute.org/cuba/voices.htm
Here is the full quote:
"The United States of America, as a first urgent step, should lift the
Embargo on Cuba, with respect to medicines and food, without
conditions, and initiate a process to quickly eliminate the Embargo
and the laws known as 'Torricelli' and 'Helms Burton.'"
Here, Paya is demanding that the US -- NOT Cuba -- to take steps to
"initiate a process to quickly eliminate the Embargo." No conditions.
Indeed: initiate a process i.e. negotiations, not an "immediate and
unconditional" end.
Nothing about "negotiations" or "conditions" here. Paya is NOT calling on Cuba to do anything to have the embargo lifted. He is only demanding that the US take steps to "initiate a process to quickly eliminate the Embargo.." (snip)
false.
He said a process.
A process means two countries sitting down and hammering it out.


It means nothing of the sort. (snip)

Nope.
Thanks for showing your despair
The process is the negotiation process between Cuba and the US

[snip]
Not according to Amnesty International (snip)
Again, here is what AI reported last month:
(snip)


What PL snipped for all too obvious reasons:
(snip)
Replied to and lie exposed.

Thanks for confirming again they never referred to the trades sanctions
as "genocide" as you falsely claimed.


Still in denial, I see.

Nope.
fact.
Amnesty never referred to the trades sanctions as "genocide" as you falsely claimed.

Amnesty International confirmed over 700 million dollar of food was sold
to Cuba in 2008.
Clearly, AI does not see this as enough. They called these cruel and inhumane sanctions of yours "immoral," and demanded that they be lifted "without further delay." (snip)
thanks for confirming the US is the largest food supplier of Cuba and
that in no way the trade sanctions can be seen as "genocide".


STILL in denial(snip)

Nope.
Still taking reality over your lies.

"Tiende tu mano a Cuba," says Paya when I ask what he thinks of American
policy, "pero primero pide que le desaten las manos a los cubanos." Extend
your hands to Cuba -- but first unshackle ours.http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1629
The "shackles" metaphor, of course, is a clear reference to the US
embargo. T(snip)
Bullshit. What PL snipped for obvious reasons AGAIN, from Paya's own
written
statement:
"The United States of America, as a first urgent step, should lift the
Embargo on Cuba, with respect to medicines and food, without
conditions, and initiate a process to quickly eliminate the Embargo
and the laws known as 'Torricelli' and 'Helms Burton.'" (My
translation)
--Oswaldo Paya, “Teinde tu Mano a Cuba,” Revista Hispano Cubana HC,
2002
and since 12002 the Us has eliminated the sanctions on food and the US
has sold 4 billion of food since then

[snip]


> Already debunked here.
Nope.
facts as confirmed by US and Cuban sources.

On the EU aid Sanctions Paya said:
"Oswaldo Payá, quien promueve el Proyecto Varela que busca cambios
democráticos, políticos y económicos en la isla en base a la Constitución
vigente, dijo a Nielson que ``no deben tomar ninguna decisión sin antes
tener un diálogo más amplio con todos los sectores de la sociedad cubana,
incluyendo al gobierno, a la posición y al movimiento cívico''.
''No nos parece adecuado que se tome una decisión si el gobierno cubano
no expresa públicamente su disposición a cumplir con los requerimientos
democráticos y de derechos humanos'', agregó."
Please explain how this supports US trade sanctions in any way.(snip)
Paya supports moderate pressure.
The US trade sanctions are NOT "moderate pressure." (snip)
But EU sanctions Paya supports are, no?

Paya is evasive on this point.
(snp)

Nope.
he recently even criticized the Spanish foreign minister Moratinos.

"We do not support any kind of foreign pressure from abroad as a
factor for change in Cuba."
–Oswaldo Paya, speaking in Washington DC, January 3, 2003
No link.
No demand to end the sanctions
How else can it be interpreted?
I go by his words not your abusive interpretations.
When Paya wants to say "immediate and unconditional" he says so.
Like Amnesty International he doesn't need you to put words in his mouth
especially not in support of a regime Paya wants to see end now.
Very evasive, Mr. Lobbyist. But thanks for confirming that Paya's statement here cannot be seen as anything but a demand for the end of the embargo. (snip)
Nope.
fact


Evasive as ever.
(snip)

Nope.
taking Paya's words over your lies.

"As Cubans we do not accept that another country or group of countries
impose its rules on the lives of our people, neither with unjust
pressure nor economic isolation, be they embargos, sanctions or other
types of measures."
–Oswaldo Paya, July 26, 2007
No link
The embargo "must be lifted without conditions because it
is not the solution."
–Oswaldo Paya, April 2009
Fisrt time he asks for lifting, but he doesn't ask for it immediately.
So, Paya wants to wait a few years and THEN lift the embargo "without
conditions???"(snip)
ask him.
[snip]
No need to. (snip)
Indeed.
his words are clear.

Yes they are. (snip)

and they don't say what you claim.


Sanchez:
Elizardo Sanchez:
``I'm talking about a dual process, which would include the gradual
dismantling of the totalitarian model, and the equally gradual
lifting of unilateral sanctions.''http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/jun01/28e9.htm
[snip]
The full quote (my emphasis):
"Sánchez did not go into details, but I sensed that he does not oppose
gradualism, or tit-for-tat conditions on AID TO CUBA. 'I'm talking
about a dual process, which would include the gradual dismantling of
the totalitarian model, and the equally gradual lifting of unilateral
sanctions.''"
So, they were talking about aid to Cuba, (snip)
Nope.
A blatant lie! From your link:
The best thing Washington and Latin American countries could do is
start preparing for a post-Castro Cuba, he said. "There should be a
Marshall-type plan to start the reconstruction of Cuba, which has been
devastated by 40 years of totalitarian inefficiency. Since this will
take time, the sooner we start the process, the better.''
This is indeed an economical fact.
the castro regime has destroyed Cuba.

Very evasive(snip)

Nope.
fact. Cuba now is dependent on imports for 80% of its food and can't pay suppliers.

I noted that current U.S. law prohibits ending the trade embargo or
assisting Cuba until after Castro and his cronies have left power, and
that many U.S. officials are are wondering why should Washington help
an agonizing totalitarian regime.
referring to the excuse used.

Sánchez did not go into details, but I sensed that he does not oppose
gradualism, or tit-for-tat conditions on aid to Cuba.
thanks for confirming what Sanchez wants: a dual process. "tit fo tat"


Thanks for confirming you lied.

Nope.
I showed you lied: tit for that means a dual process.
Not one-sided.

"I'm talking

about a dual process, which would include the gradual dismantling of
the totalitarian model, and the equally gradual lifting of unilateral
sanctions.''
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/jun01/28e9.htm
This is all about aid, (snip)
Nope.

STILL in denial,
Nope.
Still taking Sanchez' words: "unilateral sanctions" over your lies.

it is about the "unilateral sanctions" and that is how Sanchez has
referred to the embargo.

He is referring to only one aspect of the embargo here(snip)

Nope "unilateral sanctions" is referring to the trade sanctions i.e. the embargo as a whole.
he has used the term more.


From Sanchez's written statement:
"I believe that even the overwhelming majority of Cuban officials
understand it as well and that the top leadership is sufficiently
pragmatic to move with the times. (snip
What PL snipped for all too obvious reasons:
(snip)

What PL snipped in his despair:
(snip)
Nope.
Just because none of the quotes are asking for any "immediate and unconditional" end to
anything..
Just exposing your lies and snipping your misquotes and diversions.

> PS: As an antidote to PL's venomous personal attacks on me here,

the only one posting lies, slander and venomous attacks are you.

> see
> "PL's same tired old lies and evasions EXPOSED" at
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/f14dc4fcad228649?hl=en%24c96cf26743ccca

and the full thread with lots of facts about Dan Christensen and his
slander campaign.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_thread/thread/b25d20a06c019ff0/36c96cf26743ccca?hl=en$c96cf26743ccca#


THE STANDARD REPLY TO DAN'S LIES AND PERSONAL INSULTS.

again Dan Christensen shows what a hypocrite liar he is.
He is the one doing the "attacking" with his lies and slander.
As all can see I only post this piece that exposes his lies when he
has started his slanderous attacks.
That by the way is in general within a couple of exchanges on the
facts of the case involved as by then he is so stuck that he has to
resort to lies and insults.

Please note that lies combined with personal attacks only destroy
your credibility, Dan.

Dan Christensen knows I am not a lobbyist and that it is all just a
slander campaign.
As a good follower of Goebbels he keeps repeating his lies in the hope
that something will stick and that he maybe can mislead some people
that
don't know what he is all about.
Desperate Dan Is doing his bit in the slander campaign of the "rat
pack"
he is associated with. The contribution of his pals at the Centre
Ernesto Che Guevara in this group recently just shows what Dan and his
cronies are all about: lies, insults, slander and intimidation.

Actually: given your actions in the past Dan you fit the lobbyist
profile a lot closer.

You contact people in support of the Cuban regime and with the aim to
have them change the content of their website or change public
statements. You even pose as a "journalist" or "researcher" while
doing so.
The fact that you have been utterly unsuccessful at it and that only
your website suffered the removal of pages just shows what a bad
lobbyist you are.

Your Club Med, lobbying, CIA lies are exposed again


Links to the threads Dan produces his "lobbyist" misquotes from and
the exposure of his lies by others:

For those that want to see the full thread and the complete messages
in their context (which Dan Christensen desperately hopes nobody will
as it will expose his lies), here is a link to the threads concerned.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_thread/thread/5fb621a1396ecc6c/2602f5eb5bd1c2ed?hl=3D3Den=3DE0=3DA8=3DAAf5eb5bd1c2ed
http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_thread/thread/56e1a7b9ca6c61e3/9cfde811fd6c7414?#9cfde811fd6c7414

To Dan Christensen's great frustration his lies by now have been
exposed by various other people in other threads like:
http://groups.google.be/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/ac34bd501ab58b97?dmode=3D3Dsource
http://groups.google.be/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/848321c82da3bbda

Dan Christensen lied when he claimed I had stated that I had been at
Club Med in Varadero - a hotel he tried to depict as a sleazy sex
resort - to "lobby" people.
Just one example:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/4b7720708da65ee0?dmode=3D3Dsource
Dan Christensen even suggested the whole trip was paid for by the CIA
thereby accusing Belgian officials of not only sexual impropriety, but
also of active corruption.
You see: Dan Christensen just doesn't know when to stop lying and gets
caught up in his "cloak and dagger" childish fantasies.
His lies are so over the top that it all become a big joke that people
can easily see though.
Here is one example of how serial liar Dan Christensen was exposed.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/848321c82da3bbda?dmode=3D3Dsource

The lies of Dan Christensen about me that were exposed:
- his lie about me playing golf to "lobby": exposed. Dan Christensen
had to admit there were no quotes to support any of that.
- his lie about singles resorts and schmoozing: exposed as various
people stated that it is merely a family resort that even had a circus
school for children
- his lie about me being in Varadero: exposed as Dan Christensen had
to admit I never said I was there
- his lie that it were all "CIA junkets" exposed as Dan Christensen
ran like hell when he realized that this lie could expose him to legal
sanctions
- his lie that I had "self-confessed" anything: exposed by people that
put the snippets Dan Christensen abusively posts in context (as shown
in this message)
All Dan Christensen's lies have been exposed by various people.

as I said comrade
Dan: whenever you post your lies about me I post the truth about you.
Your record of lies, innuendo, insults and support of human rights
abuses discredits you.
All shame you brought on yourself by your attitude and actions.

The exposure of the "lobbyist" lie in further detail.

Dan Christensen's abuse of misquotes has been exposed over and over
again. He just aped the lie of another apologist that dropped that
specific lie very quickly. The guy is indeed smarter than stupid Dan.
When Dan Christensen tried to come up with his own "new and
improved" version of the lie he fell flat on his face.
He claimed I had been "lobbying" people In Geneva while his Rat Pack
pal "cuba libre" that stalked me then showed from an IP address from
which I had posted something that I was in Santiago de Cuba at the
time. One Rat Pack member exposing another's lies with the result of
his cyber stalking. Ironic.

Dan's other exposed false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=3D3Dg:thl174670614d&dq=3D3D&hl=3D3Den&lr=3D3D&ie=3D3DUTF-8

Again it is clear what a pathetic loser Dan Christensen is.

Below you will find what is behind Dan Christensen's slanderous
campaign: facts he can't deny.

- Frustration

I exposed Dan Christensen as a fraud in this group years ago when I
blew his "cover". In SCC he tried to portray himself as an
"independent
interested party" with no political agenda.
When I came across a blatantly different reply to a similar question
in a Stalinist e-group to which I had been invited I posted it to show
his lying hypocrisy.
Since then he has been pissed as hell as it undermined his lying
propaganda effort to mislead "those in the background" (his own words,
those that didn't have "local knowledge". He himself admitted in the
same e-group that propagandist like him can never "convince" those
with "local knowledge". In frequent exchanges he got some mad he often
forgot to keep up the pretense and made him show his hand and true
nature:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary
measures. In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in
the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=3D3Den&lr=3D3D&ie=3D3DUTF-8&selm=3D3DtirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are
morally justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=3D3Den&lr=3D3D&ie=3D3DUTF-8&selm=3D3DtxMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

That meant he was exposed a the hypocrite liar he is. It showed that
the false claims he made about others (support of genocide, torture,
abuses, ..) in fact only applied to him.

I have also frequently exposed his lies about facts and people in SCC.

Dan Christensen once claimed:
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=3D3Dsource&hl=3D3Den

Mr. Smith's own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,''
Smith
said during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the
United States: Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and
Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.
Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

Then there is the issue of his lying website: acting with a third
person I had pages removed (for violations of law, slander, ...), I
have shamed him in to changing it on
various occasions (adding links that would then expose his lies,
remove lying caption from pictures, ...) and I have in general exposed
the lies on it (on Amnesty International for example)

What Dan claimed on his website (the misquote):
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html
now moved to:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/danchristienses/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one Dan didn't give until I shamed him in
to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=3D3DENG-CUB

where the only thing Amnesty international asks for "immediately and
unconditionally" is the release of political prisoners.

Quote:

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience
(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.

" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."
end of quote

- Dogmatic hatred.

Dan Christensen is a hard-line Stalinist. His first steps in SCC were
to defend Stalin and in other forums he has praised "workers
democracy" under Stalin.
He has admitted that he is ready to fight to the last Cuban (from his
comfortable armchair in Canada) for his cause.
By posting the reports from the international press, human rights
organizations and Cuban independent journalists I have exposed his
propaganda as a lie. That makes the man wild with rage.
As he like to see himself as the "victim" (he once claimed he was
being censored in SCC) he therefore lashes out at people claiming that
those that contradict him are "CIA" agents (as if the CIA would care
about a third rate liar as Dan) and professional "lobbyists" probably
to make himself feel that he is "important" and to explain away his
complete propaganda failure (portraying himself as "overcome by
unsurmountable institutional odds").

- Personal hate and the "rat pack"

Dan has suffered the trauma of having part of his website remove
after a long battle over the personal attacks and falsifications he
had posted there.
The frequent exposures of his lies and hypocrisy only fueled the
personal hatred.
Dan ganged up with various other propagandists that people that have
been attacked by them refer to as the "rat pack". I have been the
target of the lies and slanderous insults of this "rat pack".
They specialize in online slander (from posting private information,
attacking their business or businesses they are associated with,
inciting others to harass people, over accusing people of being "CIA
agents" or "lobbyists" to the worst things one can imagine) and direct
harassment (phone calls, letters, letters with razor blade or white
powder, loitering in front of people's houses,.. up to death threats
in France).
All they succeeded in doing was to dramatically increase traffic to a
website I participate in ( www.cubaverdad.net ) and to suffer the
consequences of their slander.
Dan Christensen had part of his website removed. The Centre Che in
France had their complete website removed and their "secretary" known
here as "cubalibre" real name François Valy was sentenced to 6 months
in
jail for a whole series of abuses (including racism). A Spanish
"subsidiary" of the rat pack still has a surprise coming.
All because of their lies were exposed.

But then in the end this is what it boils down to: those that don't
have rational arguments find themselves exposed as the liars they are.
When that happens all they have left are the old
slander tactics: they attack the people that expose their lies in the
hope that they can intimidate them.
If Dan Christensen felt he had any chance to convince people directly
he would try to do so by posting facts and arguing facts.
He is reduced to snipping, posting the same snippets over and over
again, lies and slander.
As long as he and the rest of the "rat pack" (and their hangers on)
are reduced to that they expose" their own failure as Dan Christensen
does here every time.
Fine by me.

PL

"The Cuban government is based on lies and cheap propaganda. That is
why it is afraid of words and the truth."
Raul Rivero, April 2006, University of Sevilla
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: What "Prisoners of Conscience???"
    ... [snip PL's same old personal attacks, lies and evasions] ... international condemnation of his beloved embargo, ... It has just mentioned that Cuba claims these people are paid agents. ... "Cuba's agriculture shows promise," Miami Herald, Sept. 9, ...
    (soc.culture.cuba)
  • Re: NOT even Cuban "dissidents" against loosening travel, aid rules
    ... lies and evasions on everything from his lobbying exploits to the ... international condemnation of his beloved embargo, ... emigration from Cuba. ... access to medicines, new scientific and medical technology, food, ...
    (soc.culture.cuba)
  • Re: Whos Doing Business with Cuba, Despite Embargo
    ... reposted his failed lies and rationalizations word-for-word. ... of his beloved embargo, so he just snips and runs. ... Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://tiny.cc/CubaFAQ ... were written into US law decades later, as the Cuban Democracy Act, ...
    (soc.culture.cuba)
  • Re: Alas, PL STILL supports the US killing of Cuban children
    ... his usual Nazi-style lies and rationalizations. ... prove his beloved embargo is a form of genocide. ... to his lies and evasions on everything from his lobbying exploits to ... They demanded Cuba do its part to stem illegal immigration to the US. ...
    (soc.culture.cuba)
  • Re: NOT even Cuban "dissidents" against loosening travel, aid rules
    ... lies and evasions on everything from his lobbying exploits to the ... international condemnation of his beloved embargo, ... emigration from Cuba. ... access to medicines, new scientific and medical technology, food, ...
    (soc.culture.cuba)