Re: More Democrats oppose lifting Cuban travel ban

(PL is going down in flames, his beloved embargo condemned by the
international community and even by those "ungrateful" dissidents of
his! Clearly there is NO MORAL BASIS to these cruel and inhumane
sanctions
of his.)

On Nov 18, 5:21 am, PL <pl.nos...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or just too
lame to bother with]

"We request that you take a first step, above all for justice and also
in good faith toward the people of Cuba by lifting, unconditionally,
the embargo against Cuba in food and medicines."
Oswaldo Payáhttp://www.lexingtoninstitute.org/cuba/voices.htm
Here is the full quote:
"The United States of America, as a first urgent step, should lift the
Embargo on Cuba, with respect to medicines and food, without
conditions, and initiate a process to quickly eliminate the Embargo
and the laws known as 'Torricelli' and 'Helms Burton.'"
Here, Paya is demanding that the US -- NOT Cuba -- to take steps to
"initiate a process to quickly eliminate the Embargo." No conditions.
Indeed: initiate a process i.e. negotiations, not an "immediate and
unconditional" end.

Nothing about "negotiations" or "conditions" here. Paya is NOT calling on Cuba to do anything to have the embargo lifted. He is only demanding that the US take steps to "initiate a process to quickly eliminate the Embargo.." (snip)

false.
He said a process.
A process means two countries sitting down and halmeing it out.


It means nothing of the sort. You are simply grasping at straws.

Again (since you snipped it), Paya has demanded that these laws be
repealed ("eliminated") -- a PROCESS that would probably involve
several months of political wrangling in the US congress.

[snip]
Not according to Amnesty International (snip)

Again, here is what AI reported last month:

(snip)


What PL snipped for all too obvious reasons:

Again, here is what AI reported last month:

"The export of medicines and medical supplies continues to be SEVERELY
LIMITED....

“The RESTRICTIONS IMPOSED BY THE EMBARGO help to deprive Cuba of vital
access to medicines, new scientific and medical technology, food,
chemical water treatment and electricity.”
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR25/007/2009/en/540b61a6-d0...

As AI's report shows, this falls far short of even lifting the embargo
with respect to medicines and food.

Thanks for confirming again they never referred to the trades sanctions
as "genocide" as you falsely claimed.


Still in denial, I see.


Amnesty International confirmed over 700 million dollar of food was sold
to Cuba in 2008.

Clearly, AI does not see this as enough. They called these cruel and inhumane sanctions of yours "immoral," and demanded that they be lifted "without further delay." (snip)

thanks for confirming the US is the largest food supplier of Cuba and
that in no way the trade sanctions can be seen as "genocide".


STILL in denial, even after all these years, eh, Mr. Lobbyist?


"Tiende tu mano a Cuba," says Paya when I ask what he thinks of American
policy, "pero primero pide que le desaten las manos a los cubanos." Extend
your hands to Cuba -- but first unshackle ours.http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1629
The "shackles" metaphor, of course, is a clear reference to the US
embargo. T(snip)

Bullshit. What PL snipped for obvious reasons AGAIN, from Paya's own
written
statement:
"The United States of America, as a first urgent step, should lift the
Embargo on Cuba, with respect to medicines and food, without
conditions, and initiate a process to quickly eliminate the Embargo
and the laws known as 'Torricelli' and 'Helms Burton.'" (My
translation)
--Oswaldo Paya, “Teinde tu Mano a Cuba,” Revista Hispano Cubana HC,
2002

and since 12002 the Us has eliminated the sanctions on food and the US
has sold 4 billion of food since then

[snip]

Already debunked here. See above.

On the EU aid Sanctions Paya said:
"Oswaldo Payá, quien promueve el Proyecto Varela que busca cambios
democráticos, políticos y económicos en la isla en base a la Constitución
vigente, dijo a Nielson que ``no deben tomar ninguna decisión sin antes
tener un diálogo más amplio con todos los sectores de la sociedad cubana,
incluyendo al gobierno, a la posición y al movimiento cívico''.
''No nos parece adecuado que se tome una decisión si el gobierno cubano
no expresa públicamente su disposición a cumplir con los requerimientos
democráticos y de derechos humanos'', agregó."
Please explain how this supports US trade sanctions in any way.(snip)
Paya supports moderate pressure.

The US trade sanctions are NOT "moderate pressure."  (snip)

But EU sanctions Paya supports are, no?

Paya is evasive on this point. He is anything but evasive on your
beloved embargo, however. Earlier this year, he said the embargo "must
be lifted without conditions because it is not the solution."

"We do not support any kind of foreign pressure from abroad as a
factor for change in Cuba."
–Oswaldo Paya, speaking in Washington DC, January 3, 2003
No link.
No demand to end the sanctions
How else can it be interpreted?
I go by his words not your abusive interpretations.
When Paya wants to say "immediate and unconditional" he says so.
Like Amnesty International he doesn't need you to put words in his mouth
especially not in support of a regime Paya wants to see end now.

Very evasive, Mr. Lobbyist. But thanks for confirming that Paya's statement here cannot be seen as anything but a demand for the end of the embargo. (snip)

Nope.
fact


Evasive as ever. Deal with it, Mr. Lobbyist.

"As Cubans we do not accept that another country or group of countries
impose its rules on the lives of our people, neither with unjust
pressure nor economic isolation, be they embargos, sanctions or other
types of measures."
–Oswaldo Paya, July 26, 2007
No link
The embargo "must be lifted without conditions because it
is not the solution."
–Oswaldo Paya, April 2009
Fisrt time he asks for lifting, but he doesn't ask for it immediately.
So, Paya wants to wait a few years and THEN lift the embargo "without
conditions???"(snip)
ask him.

[snip]

No need to. (snip)

Indeed.
his words are clear.

Yes they are. And you can't seem to get around it, can you, Mr.
Lobbyist? Only an idiot and a hate-addled genocide junkie like you
would suggest this was not a demand for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel and inhumane sanctions of yours.


Sanchez:
Elizardo Sanchez:
``I'm talking about a dual process, which would include the gradual
dismantling of the totalitarian model, and the equally gradual
lifting of unilateral sanctions.''http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/jun01/28e9.htm
[snip]
The full quote (my emphasis):
"Sánchez did not go into details, but I sensed that he does not oppose
gradualism, or tit-for-tat conditions on AID TO CUBA. 'I'm talking
about a dual process, which would include the gradual dismantling of
the totalitarian model, and the equally gradual lifting of unilateral
sanctions.''"
So, they were talking about aid to Cuba, (snip)
Nope.

A blatant lie! From your link:
The best thing Washington and Latin American countries could do is
start preparing for a post-Castro Cuba, he said. "There should be a
Marshall-type plan to start the reconstruction of Cuba, which has been
devastated by 40 years of totalitarian inefficiency. Since this will
take time, the sooner we start the process, the better.''

This is indeed an economical fact.
the castro regime has destroyed Cuba.

Very evasive, Mr. Lobbyist. But thanks for confirming you lied. They
were talking about conditions on AID to Cuba and NOT about the trade
sanctions.


I noted that current U.S. law prohibits ending the trade embargo or
assisting Cuba until after Castro and his cronies have left power, and
that many U.S. officials are are wondering why should Washington help
an agonizing totalitarian regime.

referring to the excuse used.

Sánchez did not go into details, but I sensed that he does not oppose
gradualism, or tit-for-tat conditions on aid to Cuba.

thanks for confirming what Sanchez wants: a dual process. "tit fo tat"


Thanks for confirming you lied.

"I'm talking

about a dual process, which would include the gradual dismantling of
the totalitarian model, and the equally gradual lifting of unilateral
sanctions.''
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/jun01/28e9.htm

This is all about aid, (snip)

Nope.

STILL in denial, I see.

it is about the "unilateral sanctions" and that is how Sanchez has
referred to the embargo.

He is referring to only one aspect of the embargo here -- the
prohibition on aid. And even on this, the interviewer (an ardent
support of the embargo), equivocates: "Sánchez did not go into
details, but I sensed that he does not oppose..."

Sadly for you, Sanchez has a long record of opposing your beloved
embargo. Like his fellow dissidents, he clearly has no use for it.


From Sanchez's written statement:
"I believe that even the overwhelming majority of Cuban officials
understand it as well and that the top leadership is sufficiently
pragmatic to move with the times. (snip

What PL snipped for all too obvious reasons:

(snip)

What PL snipped in his despair:

From Sanchez's written statement:

"I believe that even the overwhelming majority of Cuban officials
understand it as well and that the top leadership is sufficiently
pragmatic to move with the times. Unfortunately, American policy
impedes the transformation we seek. Efforts to pressure and isolate
Cuba simply give the leaders a pretext to continue their repression
and allow them to divert attention from their failures.

"The vast majority of us on the island who oppose the Government
believe that a dialogue and a relaxation of tensions between the
United States and Cuba would better facilitate a transformation.
Unfortunately, the Helms-Burton Act, which among other things mandates
sanctions against foreign companies that do business in Cuba, makes it
very difficult for the United States to take part in such a
dialogue....

The basic responsibility for Cuba's future rests with the Cubans
themselves. We must begin reforms that offer hope to all. But less
rigidity on the part of the United States would do a lot to help that
change begin.
NY Times, OP ED April 22, 1997

From the Catholic World News, May 2000:

"Elizardo Sanchez, announced yesterday that he has sent a letter to
several US congressmen requesting an end to the US embargo of the
Communist country.

"Sanchez, a Catholic leader whose organization is regarded as illegal
by the Cuban government, sent a letter telling US congressmen that
'every effort toward the full normalization of bilateral relationship
will bring improvement.'

"Sanchez recalled Pope John Paul II's plea to end the embargo made
during his 1998 visit to Cuba, and said that 'most of the dissident
groups and leaders in Cuba do not support the economic sanctions
imposed unilaterally by the government of the United States over the
government of Cuba.'"
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=12889

From the Miami Herald:

"He [Sanchez] acknowledged in 1996 that his opposition to the U.S.
embargo of Cuba made him a minority among dissidents, but he now says
that a majority have become convinced that the U.S. sanction are an
impediment to reforms."
"Cuban Human-Rights Activist Takes Center Stage," Miami Herald,
November 18, 1999.

as shown: no quotes asking for any "immediate and unconditional" end to
anything.

[snip]

STILL in denial, I see. What a loser.

Face it, Mr. Lobbyist, there is absolutely NO MORAL basis to these
cruel and inhuman sanctions of yours. Even those in whose name you
wage this war on the Cuban people reject them! But we always knew that
was just a pretext, didn't we... Mr. Lobbyist?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://tiny.cc/CubaFAQ
(Note new address. Please update your bookmarks and links.)

PS: As an antidote to PL's venomous personal attacks on me here, see
"PL's same tired old lies and evasions EXPOSED" at
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/36c96cf26743ccca?hl=en
.

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