Re: Cuban rafters Remember Tugboat Massacre

Dan Christensen wrote:
On Jul 17, 2:14 pm, PL <pl.nos...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]

This was no "massacre." It was nothing more than a hijacking gone
tragically wrong.
Nope. A massacre.
An act of democide, a form of genocide
Bullshit. The only genocide here is your beloved embargo -- genocide
that you fully support and have actively promoted for years.
The immediate response of the Cuban government, as
documented by none other than Amnesty International, was to cease all
interceptions of illegal departures by sea. (snip)
actually - as documented by amnesty - their "immediate response" was to
kill the people that were trying to flee.
There is no credible evidence, not even from AI, that this was
anything other than a hijacking gone tragically wrong.
AI INDEX: AMR 25/013/1997 1 July 1997
CUBA:
The Sinking of the "13 de Marzo" Tugboat on 13 July 1994

[snip]

AI INDEX: AMR 25/013/1997 1 July 1997

CUBA:
The Sinking of the "13 de Marzo" Tugboat on 13 July 1994

[snip more of the same]

You are simply repeating yourself here. (snip)

as always the facts are a lot more repetitive than your lies.

and here is a video with testimony of the victims: (with English subtitles)
http://www.cubaencuentro.com/es/multimedia/videos/recordando-el-hundimiento-del-remolcador-13-de-marzo
It is those people and their dead relatives Dan Christensen insults with his support for this murders.

The only genocide here is that at the hands of the US government --
(snip)
Nope.
The only one on Genocide Watch's list is your beloved dictator.
Repeatedly debunked here. GW's credibility was shattered(snip)
Nope.
your lies were exposed:

Dan Christensen's exposed lie about Genocide Watch.

Dan falsely claimed the organization had copied (mindlessly) a number
from a book by Rummel. Another case of false claims of "private
information".

[snip]

PL cannot refute the fact that GW was forced (snip)

Genocide Watch wasn't "forced" to do anything, desperate liar.
Your lies were exposed.

No reputable international organization has ever referred to the trade
sanctions as "genocide".
As late as March this year, Amnesty International reported:
(snip)

What Mr. Lobbyist snipped for obvious reasons and has repeatedly
refused to address:

actually I replied to it and noted that you confirmed in fact that neither Amnesty international nor any other reputable international organization has ever referred to the trade sanctions as genocide exposing your lies and desperate attempts to put words in their mouths.

(snip)

Amnesty international NEVER referred to the trade sanctions as genicide.
nor did any other reputable international organization.

Like an old Nazi,

as usual hypocrite Dan Christensen resorts to lies insults and slander when he knows he can't refute what I said.

As far as having "nazi attitudes", Dan Christensen is the only one that displays them:

You support a regime that:
- is on the list of genocide Watch:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
- does not allow freedom of speech - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
- imprisons opponents (even having it's own concentration camps in the
past: the UMAP) - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/dissidents.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/independent_journalists_in_cuba.htm
more about the UMAP:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=UMAP&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
- tortures opponents:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm
- violates human rights - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/universal_declaration_of_human_rights.htm
- persecuted gays until very recently - like the Nazi regime
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22gay%22+OR+%22homo%22&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
- burns books - like the Nazi regime
- uses harsh repression against its people and has a sophisticated
system of
social control - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm
.................
and of course there are your own words that show you attitude:
Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures. In
this
case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
...................
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send
death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and Colombia.
Again, the
actions of the Cuban government in detaining these so-called
dissidents seem
quite mild in comparison and are morally justified under the
circumstances."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote

(snip)

That is just one of your propaganda lies Mr. Serial Liar.
The US is the 5th trading partner of Cuba and it's largest food supplier
supplying about a third of the imported food to Cuba,
[snip]
Enough of your self-serving rationalizations,(snip)

What PL snipped for obvious reasons:

Enough of your self-serving rationalizations,(snip)

Nope.
No "rationalizations".
Confirmed facts.

The US is the 5th trading partner of Cuba and sold about 801 million dollars (mostly in food items) to Cuba in 2008.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/weblog/venezuela-china-y-espana-principales-socios-comerciales-de-cuba-en-2008/

(note: that would mean that the US mow provides close to 1/3 of Cuba's food needs 800 million out of 2.5 billion)

Also see
Despite embargo, Cuba imports daiquiris from US | Cubaverdad (15 May 2009)
http://www.cubaverdad.net/weblog/despite-embargo-cuba-imports-daiquiris-from-us/


Just stating facts you can't deny.
I also see you again snipped the fact that Cuba needs to import about
80% of its food.

[snip]

Repeatedly debunked here.

Never debunked.
the fact is confirmed over and over again by international organizations, (WFP, ...) and the international press (Economist, ...)

Thanks for again allowing me to show what a desperate liar you are dan Christensen.

In 2006, according to the Communist Party official newspaper Granma, Cuba commercially imported nearly 85 percent of its food needs. For more
than a decade, it has also depended on food donations from the United Nations World Food Program (WFP) to feed more than 700,000 families in the five eastern-most provinces.
In addition, Cuba's capacity to import the food it needs, as well as other critical goods, has severely deteriorated with the collapse of key exports sectors, particularly sugar, and the suspension of large subsidies from the former Soviet Union. Currently, capacity
to import food has increased somewhat with the subsidies from Venezuela. A large portion of these food imports comes from the United States.

FOOD VS. FUEL: A FALSE DILEMMA FOR CUBA | Cubaverdad
http://www.cubaverdad.net/weblog/food-vs-fuel-a-false-dilemma-for-cuba/


"These included decentralizing farming from August 1 to ease access to
food in a country which imports 80 percent of the products it consumes
and last year spent 2.5 billion dollars on food purchases."

Power cuts and fewer beans for crisis-hit Cubans | Cubaverdad
http://www.cubaverdad.net/weblog/power-cuts-and-fewer-beans-for-crisis-hit-cubans/

En 2008 la importación del 80% de los alimentos esenciales le costó a Cuba 1.850 millones de euros y para reducir esa factura este año las raciones de frijoles, chícharos y sal se han recortado a la mitad. Los precios en los mercados agrícolas siguen congelados, nueve meses después de los huracanes, y faltan muchos productos. Las tiendas de divisas no ofertan pollo, picadillo de res, papel higiénico, dentífrico; el precio de la leche en polvo y las conservas es inasequible.

La paradoja económica cubana | Cubaverdad
http://www.cubaverdad.net/weblog/la-paradoja-economica-cubana/


From the WFP:

In Cuba, which imports 80 percent of its food, iron-deficiency anaemia
is the commonest nutritional disorder: recent studies by the Institute
of Nutrition and Food Hygiene show that anaemia prevalence in the
eastern region is 56.7 percent among children under 2 and 20.1 percent
in children aged 2-5.

Support for the National Plan on Prevention and Control of Anaemia in
the Five Eastern Provinces of Cuba | WFP | United Nations World Food
Programme - Fighting Hunger Worldwide

http://www.wfp.org/content/support-national-plan-prevention-and-control-anaemia-five-eastern-provinces-cuba

Agri-Food
Past, Present & Future Report
Cuba
March 2009

Although Cuba's agriculture sector has traditionally been vital to the
economy with such notable products as sugar, tobacco, citrus products,
and tropical fruits, it now imports approximately 80-85% of its
foodstuff requirements. In 1960, roughly 87% of Cuba's rural population
was engaged in agriculture production, and while about 66% of the
population is still engaged in agriculture, the sector lacks the
technology and investment needed to significantly modernize production.
Between the years 2000 and 2006 Cuba's agricultural imports almost
doubled. An estimated 15% of Cuba's total imports are agricultural.

http://www.ats.agr.gc.ca/latin/4678-eng.htm

Havana bling
Rory Carroll
12 April 2008 06:00

The most important change is in agriculture, in which mismanagement
has shrivelled cash crops such as sugar, tobacco and coffee and forced
the lush island to import 80% of its food. Now decision-making has
been decentralised and some restrictions lifted to give farmers more
incentive to produce.
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-04-11-havana-bling

Cuba imports approximately 80 percent of the food consumed by its 11.2
million inhabitants and had planned to spend $2 billion this year even
before the devastation wrought by Gustav and Ike.
http://havanajournal.com/business/entry/food-shortages-starting-in-cuba-is-=
the-system-freezing-up/

The island imports 80% of its food, at a cost of $2.5 billion, and its
huge trade deficit has soared this year by 70% to more than $11
billion, according to official figures out this week. That is only
partly covered by the $7.8 billion Cuba receives for "export services"=97
doctors and sports trainers sent to Venezuela in exchange for oil.
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3D12851246

Although Cuba already imports 80 percent of the food that it's 11.2
million residents consume, analysts say the impact of the hurricanes
pushes the island into a crisis during a time of high food prices in
international markets.
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=3Dc87faaa=
b5329d7d51fedc165d5b9ad2d

Cuba imports 80 percent of the food consumed by its 11.2-million
inhabitants, making it highly vulnerable to the commodity price shocks
and foreign currency swings in recent months. Cuba's imports this year
are estimated at $2.5-billion, up 56 percent from last year.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/world/article946886.ece

But overall Cuba is still reliant today on imports for 80% of its
total food consumption, and thus extremely vulnerable to world food
price fluctuations.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/763/39410

IMPORTA 80% DE NECESIDADES
Sector productivo cubano, muerto

En 1958, Cuba produci­a casi el 80% de los alimentos que consumía y era
el principal proveedor de hortalizas de EE.UU. Hoy es al reves: la isla
importa mas del 80% de la cesta básica y la mayor parte de los
alimentos viene del "imperio", su quinto socio comercial, a pesar del
embargo decretado en 1962. Actualmente, mas del 50% de las tierras
cultivables estan ociosas.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/42389

To save communism, Raúl experiments with consumerism
Minor economic reforms by Castro's brother risk exposing inequality and
encouraging the desire for change
Rory Carroll in Havana
The Guardian, Monday 7 April 2008

"The most important change so far is in agriculture, in which
mismanagement has shrivelled cash crops such as sugar, tobacco and
coffee and forced the lush island to import 80% of its food. Now
decision-making has been decentralised and some restrictions lifted to
give farmers more incentive to produce."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/07/cuba?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews

Waiting for Obama | The Economist

This will be exacerbated by pressures from high food import prices (Cuba
imports around 80% of its food needs), falling nickel prices (a main
source of foreign exchange) and the hurricane-related losses. The
country's already huge trade deficit soared in 2008 by 70%, to an
estimated US$11bn.

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12882233

Cuba News

Cuba imports around 80% of its food products and Raul Castro recently
implemented reforms in the farming sector in an attempt to stimulate
domestic production. Cuba will have to import more food or face shortages.

http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/cuba/news/cubanews.cfm
Cubasource (20 May 2009)

Cuba imports more than 80 percent of the food it consumes (EFE, 3/11/08).
http://www.cubasource.org/publications/chronicles/coc200811ec_e.asp

Note that Dan Christensen wants you to believe that he (no facts at all)
and his propaganda should be believed over the reports of:
- the WFP, a specialized international agency with a local office.
http://www.wfp.org/content/support-national-plan-prevention-and-control-anaemia-five-eastern-provinces-cuba
- the Economist (a respected UK publication with an research department
called "the intelligence unit" that prepares a report on Cuba each year)
http://www.eiu.com/index.asp?rf=0
- The Canadian government
http://www.ats.agr.gc.ca/latin/4678-eng.htm
- the Guardian (a left of center newspaper in the UK)

and Greenleft, ....

How pompous is this Stalinist apologist Dan Christensen that he dreams
that he can convince anyone of his propaganda is beyond me.
he must have an utter disdain for people's intelligence.


Dan Christensen knows I am not a lobbyist and that it is all just a
slander campaign.
As a good follower of Goebbels he keeps repeating his lies in the hope
that something will stick and that he maybe can mislead some people that
don't know what he is all about.
Desperate Dan Is doing his bit in the slander campaign of the "rat pack"
he is associated with. The contribution of his pals at the Centre
Ernesto Che Guevara in this group recently just shows what Dan and his
cronies are all about: lies, insults, slander and intimidation.

Actually: given your actions in the past Dan you fit the lobbyist
profile a lot closer.

You contact people in support of the Cuban regime and with the aim to
have them change the content of their website or change public
statements. You even pose as a "journalist" or "researcher" while doing so.
The fact that you have been utterly unsuccessful at it and that only
your website suffered the removal of pages just shows what a bad
lobbyist you are.

Your Club Med, lobbying, CIA lies are exposed again


Links to the threads Dan produces his "lobbyist" misquotes from and
the exposure of his lies by others:

For those that want to see the full thread and the complete messages
in their context (which Dan Christensen desperately hopes nobody will
as it will expose his lies), here is a link to the threads concerned.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_thread/thread/5fb621a1396ecc6c/2602f5eb5bd1c2ed?hl=3D3Den=3DE0=3DA8=3DAAf5eb5bd1c2ed
http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_thread/thread/56e1a7b9ca6c61e3/9cfde811fd6c7414?#9cfde811fd6c7414

To Dan Christensen's great frustration his lies by now have been
exposed by various other people in other threads like:
http://groups.google.be/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/ac34bd501ab58b97?dmode=3D3Dsource
http://groups.google.be/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/848321c82da3bbda

Dan Christensen lied when he claimed I had stated that I had been at
Club Med in Varadero - a hotel he tried to depict as a sleezy sex
resort - to "lobby" people.
Just one example:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/4b7720708da65ee0?dmode=3D3Dsource
Dan Christensen even suggested the whole trip was paid for by the CIA
thereby accusing Belgian officials of not only sexual impropriety, but
also of active corruption.
You see: Dan Christensen just doesn't know when to stop lying and gets
caught up in his "cloak and dagger" childish fantasies.
His lies are so over the top that it all become a big joke that people
can easily see though.
Here is one example of how serial liar Dan Christensen was exposed.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/848321c82da3bbda?dmode=3D3Dsource

The lies of Dan Christensen about me that were exposed:
- his lie about me playing golf to "lobby": exposed. Dan Christensen
had to admit there were no quotes to support any of that.
- his lie about singles resorts and schmoozing: exposed as various
people stated that it is merely a family resort that even had a circus
school for children
- his lie about me being in Varadero: exposed as Dan Christensen had
to admit I never said I was there
- his lie that it were all "CIA junkets" exposed as Dan Christensen
ran like hell when he realized that this lie could expose him to legal
sanctions
- his lie that I had "self-confessed" anything: exposed by people that
put the snippets Dan Christensen abusively posts in context (as shown
in this message)
All Dan Christensen's lies have been exposed by various people.

as I said comrade
Dan: whenever you post your lies about me I post the truth about you.
Your record of lies, innuendo, insults and support of human rights
abuses discredits you.
All shame you brought on yourself by your attitude and actions.

The exposure of the "lobbyist" lie in further detail.

Dan Christensen's abuse of misquotes has been exposed over and over
again. He just aped the lie of another apologist that dropped that
specific lie very quickly. The guy is indeed smarter than stupid Dan.
When Dan Christensen tried to come up with his own "new and
improved" version of the lie he fell flat on his face.
He claimed I had been "lobbying" people In Geneva while his Rat Pack
pal "cuba libre" that stalked me then showed from an IP address from
which I had posted something that I was in Santiago de Cuba at the
time. One Rat Pack member exposing another's lies with the result of
his cyber stalking. Ironic.

Dan's other exposed false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=3D3Dg:thl174670614d&dq=3D3D&hl=3D3Den&lr=3D3D&ie=3D3DUTF-8

Again it is clear what a pathetic loser Dan Christensen is.

Below you will find what is behind Dan Christensen's slanderous
campaign: facts he can't deny.

- Frustration

I exposed Dan Christensen as a fraud in this group years ago when I
blew his "cover". In SCC he tried to portray himself as an
"independent
interested party" with no political agenda.
When I came across a blatantly different reply to a similar question
in a Stalinist e-group to which I had been invited I posted it to show
his lying hypocrisy.
Since then he has been pissed as hell as it undermined his lying
propaganda effort to mislead "those in the background" (his own words,
those that didn't have "local knowledge". He himself admitted in the
same e-group that propagandist like him can never "convince" those
with "local knowledge". In frequent exchanges he got some mad he often
forgot to keep up the pretense and made him show his hand and true
nature:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary
measures. In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......................................................................................................
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in
the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=3D3Den&lr=3D3D&ie=3D3DUTF-8&selm=3D3DtirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are
morally justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=3D3Den&lr=3D3D&ie=3D3DUTF-8&selm=3D3DtxMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

That meant he was exposed a the hypocrite liar he is. It showed that
the false claims he made about others (support of genocide, torture,
abuses, ..) in fact only applied to him.

I have also frequently exposed his lies about facts and people in SCC.

Dan Christensen once claimed:
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=3D3Dsource&hl=3D3Den

Mr. Smith's own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,''
Smith
said during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the
United States: Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and
Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.
Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

Then there is the issue of his lying website: acting with a third
person I had pages removed (for violations of law, slander, ...), I
have shamed him in to changing it on
various occasions (adding links that would then expose his lies,
remove lying caption from pictures, ...) and I have in general exposed
the lies on it (on Amnesty International for example)

What Dan claimed on his website (the misquote):
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one Dan didn't give until I shamed him in
to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=3D3DENG-CUB

where the only thing Amnesty international asks for "immediately and
unconditionally" is the release of political prisoners.

Quote:

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience
(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.

" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."
end of quote

- Dogmatic hatred.

Dan Christensen is a hard-line Stalinist. His first steps in SCC were
to defend Stalin and in other forums he has praised "workers
democracy" under Stalin.
He has admitted that he is ready to fight to the last Cuban (from his
comfortable armchair in Canada) for his cause.
By posting the reports from the international press, human rights
organizations and Cuban independent journalists I have exposed his
propaganda as a lie. That makes the man wild with rage.
As he like to see himself as the "victim" (he once claimed he was
being censored in SCC) he therefore lashes out at people claiming that
those that contradict him are "CIA" agents (as if the CIA would care
about a third rate liar as Dan) and professional "lobbyists" probably
to make himself feel that he is "important" and to explain away his
complete propaganda failure (portraying himself as "overcome by
unsurmountable institutional odds").

- Personal hate and the "rat pack"

Dan has suffered the trauma of having part of his website remove
after a long battle over the personal attacks and falsifications he
had posted there.
The frequent exposures of his lies and hypocrisy only fueled the
personal hatred.
Dan ganged up with various other propagandists that people that have
been attacked by them refer to as the "rat pack". I have been the
target of the lies and slanderous insults of this "rat pack".
They specialize in online slander (from posting private information,
attacking their business or businesses they are associated with,
inciting others to harass people, over accusing people of being "CIA
agents" or "lobbyists" to the worst things one can imagine) and direct
harassment (phone calls, letters, letters with razor blade or white
powder, loitering in front of people's houses,.. up to death threats
in France).
All they succeeded in doing was to dramatically increase traffic to a
website I participate in ( www.cubaverdad.net ) and to suffer the
consequences of their slander.
Dan Christensen had part of his website removed. The Centre Che in
France had their complete website removed and their "secretary" known
here as "cubalibre" was sentenced to 6 months in jail for a whole
series of abuses. A Spanish "subsidiary" of the rat pack still has a
surprise coming.
All because of their lies were exposed.

But then in the end this is what it boils down to: those that don't
have rational arguments find themselves exposed as the liars they are.
When that happens all they have left are the old
slander tactics: they attack the people that expose their lies in the
hope that they can intimidate them.
If Dan Christensen felt he had any chance to convince people directly
he would try to do so by posting facts and arguing facts.
He is reduced to snipping, posting the same snippets over and over
again, lies and slander.
As long as he and the rest of the "rat pack" (and their hangers on)
are reduced to that they expose" their own failure as Dan Christensen
does here every time.
Fine by me.

PL

"The Cuban government is based on lies and cheap propaganda. That is
why it is afraid of words and the truth."
Raul Rivero, April 2006, University of Sevilla
.

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