Re: EXPORTING TO CUBA

On 25 jul, 06:01, Dan Christensen <dch...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:24 pm, PL <P...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]

According to your original posting, US food exports to Cuba amounted
to only about 11 cents per Cuban per day in 2007.

Yep.

Thanks for admitting you lied.

Get a life Dan.
I never questioned the stupid calculations.
just the lies you build around it.

No lies, Mr. Lobbyist --

yes lies Dan Christensen.
You claim that 25 to 30% of the monthly rationing is "insignificant"
for Cubans.
That is a blatant lie.

just your desperate attempts to get off the
hook for what amounts to genocide.

The fact the US is Cuba's 5the trading partner and largest food
supplier (confirmed by Cuban authorities) exposes that lie.
Your favorite dictator on the other hand is in the dock for acts of
genocide.
All the detals and links to Genocide watch at:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm

Sadly for you, absolutely no one
seems to be buying into your self-serving rationalizations
(snip)
actually: nobody is buying your lies as you yourself have proved by
failing to post even ONE quote from a reputable international
organization referring to the trade sanctions as "genocide".

Quit trying to
pretend this is a significant amount of food.

I am not "trying to pretend" anything.

[snip]

Yes, you are. You are pretending that 11 cents worth of food per
person per day (official US data) is a significant amount of foo

(snip)

For Cubans it is 25 to 30% of the food they receive in the rationing
system.
that is crucial to them.

[snip]

Enough of your rationalizations

No rationalization.
A fact.
Cubans would be hard hir if they lost more than a quarter of the
rationing.
(snip)

Everything in context Dan: that food is extremely iportant to Cubans
that are already struggling due to castro mismanagement.

What desperate Dan Christensen snips as he doesn't dare addressing it:

Are you claiming that losing 25 to 30% of their rationing wouldn't
hurt Cubans?
All Cubans will say it would.
The amount is significant and your lying attempt to belittle the
importance of US food failed (again), Mr. Serial Liar.

So, you refuse to say whether or not the average Cuban gets the
equivalent of only about 44 cents worth of food per day.

(snip)

I am saying what the Cuban officials and media say comrade Dan.
The 11c you refer to amounts to 25 to .30% of the food they get in the
rationing.

[snip]

It refers to total US food exports to Cuba for 2007. (Divide by
population of 11.3 million.)

and that total food export according to Cuban officials represents
about 25 to 30% of what Cubans get in the rationing.

That is the point.
That is why these imports are crucial to the Cuban people.

Imported foods make up 84% of the food distributed in the rationing
(based on Cuba data).
That means that the US contribution it represents between 25 and 30%
of the food Cubans receive in the rationing.
It also puts the US as the first supplier of foodstuffs and now 5th
trading partner of Cuba, up two places over the last years.

here is the Cuban data:

"According to Alimport, in 2006, the total in imports and related
costs
paid to U.S. companies exceeded $570.8 million."

"Currently, Cuba imports some 7.8 million tons of foodstuffs. Of that,
95% is allocated for the family basket of goods guaranteed to every
Cuban household (a rationed distribution of products such as rice,
legumes, sugar, coffee, milk, meats, etc.) by the state"

"In opening the recent round of negotiations, Alvarez noted that
from
the start of this one-way trade, ALIMPORT has made contact with more
than 4,351 companies in 45 U.S. states, and has signed agreements
worth
$2.431 billion."
http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2007/mayo/juev31/agreements-100-million-purchases.html
Spanish version:
http://www.granma.cu/espanol/2007/mayo/juev31/nuevos-contratos-por-alimentos.html

"La economía cubana necesita incrementar la producción de alimentos y
reducir las importaciones, en las que invierte unos mil millones de
dólares anuales, indicó la viceministra de Economía y Planificación,
Magalys Calvo. Cuba importa anualmente el 84% de los alimentos
destinados a la canasta básica, que incluye un grupo que se distribuye
a la población a precios subvencionados, según dijo la funcionaria en
una reunión de legisladores en la provincia oriental de Camagüey,
informa
hoy el diario oficial "Granma"."
http://www.invertia.com/noticias/noticia.asp?subclasid=&clasid=&idNoticia=1702551

"Cuba last year spent about $1.6 billion on food imports, which made
up 84 percent of the food products offered to the public at subsidized
prices."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/cuba/sfl-0408,0,6585667.column
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2008/04/increased-food-production-matter-of.html

You can't hide behind the fact that Cuba distributes very little food
to it's people. Certainly not the 65kg a month you once claimed based
on "data" from
Granma.
http://groups.google.be/group/alt.journalism/msg/736e89408546405f?hl=nl

All data shows the US is the most important supplier of food to Cuba.
Cuban officials and papers have shown that imported food is at least
84% of the content of the rationing system.
The US supplies more than a third of that.
Very important to each and every Cuban and only people with an
infamous political agenda would try to dismiss that fact


The rationing is the main source of food for Cubans.
Any other food items have to be bought at high expense on the black
market, farmers markets (quote us some prices from these Mr. Serial
Liar) and the prohibitively expensive "divisa" (previously dollar)
stores.

That is why Cuban estimates show that a family needs about 7 times
the average income for a family to make ends meet.
75% of families can't make ends meet even while spending 75% of their
income on food.

Cuba toca fondo El 75% de las familias no llega a fin de mes mientras
el
Gobierno de Raull Castro se propone mejorar las duras condiciones de
vida
http://www.invertia.com/noticias/noticia.asp?subclasid=&clasid=&idNoticia=1702551

From a source that is known to be pro-Castro in it's reporting:

Cubans receive their state salaries and pensions in regular pesos,
which
they use to buy a very limited range of subsidised rationed food
items,
or to purchase fresh produce in the farmers markets, where prices are
governed by the law of supply and demand..

An average family of four dedicates 75 percent of their salary to
basic
food products sold at subsidised prices, which barely cover their
minimum nutritional requirements.

The CUC, meanwhile, provides access to a much broader range of often
essential goods, including food, clothing, footwear, and personal
hygiene and household products - like powdered milk, cooking oil,
shampoo or hair conditioner - in a chain of hard currency stores.

However, "most Cubans merely buy cooking oil, tomato paste and bar
soap"
in these stores, said an economist who preferred not to be identified.

"This limited range of products on their shopping lists is a
reflection
of the overall low level of income in hard currency, which barely
covers
basic needs," he told IPS.

Although health care and education are free, and utility rates are
extremely low, a survey conducted in Havana at the start of the decade
found that a family of four would require seven times the average
salary
to meet all of their basic needs."

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=3D3D3D33561

    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following
acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a
national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;

    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life
calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in
part;

And this is precisely what your beloved embargo does --

Nope.
It doesn't.

[snip]

Still in denial, I see. (See below.)

Nope.
Still stating facts.
Still no quote from a reputable international organization I see.
Thanks for exposing your own lies again.

Poor pathetic lobbyist...

Again: no quotes.
thanks for showing you are a serial liar dan Christensen
Your insults can't replace facts desperate lobbyist

Only a few weeks ago,
Amnesty International, for example, reiterated its condemnation of
your beloved embargo saying:

"The effects of the US embargo continued to be highly detrimental to
the enjoyment of a range of economic, social and cultural rights --

What Mr. Lobbyist snipped for obvious reasons:

(snip)

What Mr. Lobbyist snipped YET AGAIN for obvious reasons:


(snip)
I actually gave the link to the whole report, something you never did.
You only posted a snippet without links or context to mislead people.
As anyone can see by following the link: nowhere and in no way Amnesty
International even remotely suggests what you falsely claim.
Another propaganda lie of yours exposed.

The link again:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/Cuba

actually we are all waiting for the link comrade dan.
I shall give it:http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/Cuba

There it is under the heading, "Impact of the US embargo." Thanks for
confirming I was right.


and it doesn't imply in any way that there would be any intent to
"physically destroy" anyone as you falsely claim.
Indeed.
It also condemns your favorite dictator for gross human righst abuses.

(snip)
Link please.
With the link here anyone will see that nowhere Amnesty claims the US
has the intent to  "bring about its physical destruction in whole or
in part".

[snip]

Denial of "the right to food, health and sanitation" and attacking
"the most vulnerable members of the population" most certainly
demonstrates an intent to "bring about its physical destruction in
whole or in part".

Still no link.
and nope even the isolated quote doesn't back up your lies desperate
Dan.

Desperately grasping at straws as always, eh, Mr. Lobbyist?

NopeStating facts and still waiting for even one quote.

Never and nowhere did Amnesty even hint it considered the trade
sanctions "genocide"

[snip]

There is no "hinting" about it,
(snip)

True.
there is nothing at all about your lies.
(snip)

as I said comrade
Dan: whenever you post your lies about me I post the truth about you.
You are right to understand that your record of lies, innuendo,
insults
and support of human rights abuses discredits you.
All shame you brought on yourself by your attitude and actions.

And the exposure of the "lobbyist" lie.

Your abuse of misquotes has been exposed over and over again Mr.
serial
Liar.
When you tried to come up with your own new version of the lie
you also fell flat on your face , no?
Remember when you claimed I had been "lobbying" people In Geneva while
your pal "cuba libre" that stalked me then showed from an IP that I
was
in Santiago de Cuba at the time.

Dan's other exposed false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

A real loser you are.

Below you will find what is behind Dan Christensen's slanderous
campaign: facts he can't deny.

- Frustration

I exposed Dan Christensen as a fraud in this group years ago when I
blew
his "cover". In SCC he tried to portray himself as an "independent
interested party" with no political agenda.
When I came across a blatantly different reply to a similar question
in
a Stalinist e-group to which I had been invited I posted it to show
his
lying hypocrisy.
Since then he has been pissed as hell as it undermined his lying
propaganda effort to mislead "those in the background" (his own words,
those that didn't have "local knowledge". He himself admitted in the
same e-group that propagandist like him can never "convince" those
with
"local knowledge".

In frequent exchanges he got some mad he often forgot to keep up the
presence and made him show his hand and true nature:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary
measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.............................................................
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

That meant he was exposed a the hypocrite liar he is. It showed that
the
false claims he made about others (support of genocide, torture,
abuses, ..)in fact only applied to him.

I have also frequently exposed his lies about facts and people in SCC.

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the
United
States: Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and
Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

Then there is the issue of his lying website: I had pages removed (for
violations of law, slander, ...), have shamed him in to changing it on
various occasions (adding links that would then expose his lies,
remove lying caption from pictures, ...)and have in general exposed
the lies
on it (on Amnesty International for example)

What Dan claimed on his website (the misquote):
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one Dan didn't give until I shamed him in
to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

where the only thing Amnesty international asks for "immediately and
unconditionally" is the release of political prisoners.

Quote:

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."
en of quote

- Dogmatic hatred.

Dan Christensen is a hard-line Stalinist. His first steps in SCC were
to defend Stalin and in other forums he has praised "workers
democracy"
under Stalin.
He has admitted that he is ready to fight to the last Cuban (from his
comfortable armchair in Canada) for his cause.
By posting the reports from the international press, human rights
organizations and Cuban independent journalists I have exposed his
propaganda as a lie. That makes the man wild with rage.
As he like to see himself as the "victim" (he once claimed he was
being censored in SCC) he therefore lashes out at people claiming that
those
that contradict him are "CIA" agents (as if the CIA would care about a
third rate liar as Dan) and professional "lobbyists" probably to make
himself feel that he is "important" and to explain away his complete
propaganda failure (portraying himself as "overcome by unsurmountable
institutional odds").

- Personal hate and the "rat pack"

Dan has suffered the trauma of having part of his website remove
after a long battle over the personal attacks and falsifications he
had
posted there.
The frequent exposures of his lies and hypocrisy only fueled the
personal hatred.
Dan ganged up with various other propagandists that people that have
been attacked by them refer to as the "rat pack". I have been the
target of the lies and slanderous insults of this "rat pack".
They specialize in online slander (from posting private information,
attacking their business or businesses they are associated with,
inciting others to harass people, over accusing people of being "CIA
agents" or "lobbyists" to the worst things one can imagine)and direct
harassment (phone calls, letters, letters with razor blade or white
powder, loitering in front of people's houses,.. up to death threats
in France).
All they succeeded in doing was to dramatically increase traffic to a
website I participate in ( www.cubaverdad.net )and to suffer the
consequences of their slander.
Dan Christensen had part of his website removed. The Centre Che in
France had their complete website removed and their "secretary" known
here as "cubalibre" went to jail for 6 months for a whole series of
abuses. A Spanish "subsidiary" of the rat pack still has a surprise
coming.
All because of their lies were exposed.

But then in the end this is what it boils down to:
those that don't have rational arguments find themselves exposed as
the liars they are. When that happens all they have left are the old
slander tactics: they attack the people that expose their lies in the
hope
thatthey can intimidate them.
If Dan Christensen felt he had any chance to convince people directly
he would try to do so by posting facts and arguing facts.
He is reduced to snipping, posting the same snippets over and over
again, lies and slander.
As long as he and the rest of the "rat pack" (and their hangers on)
are reduced to that they expose" their own failure.
Fine by me.

PL

"The Cuban government is based on lies and cheap propaganda. That is
why
it is afraid of words and the truth."
Raul Rivero, April 2006, University of Sevilla, Spain
.

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