Re: Cuba revolution worth the price

Dan Christensen wrote:
On Mar 23, 9:20 am, PL <pl.nos...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]

what desperate Dan snipped as he can't refute any of it and doesn't dare
to adderss it

For years now I have asked you to give us a budget for a family of 4 in
Cuba showing how they make ends meet.
You never dared to even attempt to provide one as you know it will
expose your lies, but provide one and prov" me wrong (see Mr Orange -
Yellow and Red - fail to do so for the 500th time)

In Fact: Cuban economists have calculated that a family of 4 needs 1600
pesos a month in Cuba.
The average salary is less than a quarter of that. 75% of Cuban families
can't make ends meet even though they spend 75% of their income on food.

Cuba toca fondo
El 75% de las familias no llega a fin de mes mientras el Gobierno de
Raúl Castro se propone mejorar las duras condiciones de vida
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/Cuba/toca/fondo/elpepuint/20070714elpepiint_1/Tes

Los bajos salarios y la crisis en Cuba
Una familia necesita 1,600 pesos al mes, pero el sueldo promedio es de 387
pesos
Redacción de La Opinión
28 de julio de 2007
http://www.laopinion.com/latinoamerica/?rkey=00000000000002034980

So much for your "good old days!"
I opposed both dictators: Batista and Castro.
The communists in Cuba supported both
What an idiot!(snip)
What Mr. Lobbyist snipped for obvious reasons:
What an idiot! As I recall, Batista and his henchmen did not flee to
Moscow in 1959.(snip)
doesn't change the fact that the Cuban communists supported Batista as
their candidate for the 1940 election and that they had a special
relationship with Batista until the end.
[snip]
Whoever these "Communists" of yours were,(snip)

What Mr. Lobbyist snipped for obvious reasons:

Whoever these "Communists" of yours were, they did not include the
Soviet Union (snip)

This was the official communist party of Cuba controlled by the Komintern.

They were the official communist party of Cuba

[snip]

Very evasive(snip)

Nope.
fact.
the communist party recognized by the Komintern supported Batista since
the 1940 elections.
they rejected the anti-Batista revolution as "bourgeois".

Thanks for confirming the BRAC was set up by the CIA.
and for also showing that instead of going after communists they went
after Batista's true opponets
Again (since you snipped it for obvious reasons), as a former CIA
operative in Latin America, Philip Agee,(snip)
dead now and dependent of Castro protection.

You and your political masters(snip)

unlike you I have no masters.
Cuban history shows that the communists were protected under Batista.
their newspaper was allowed to go on and the communists didn't join the
revolution until it was very clear that Batista would fall.

According to the U.N. 1957 Statistical Yearbook, Cuba's 32 per 1,000
infant mortality rate that year was the lowest in Latin America,
Now, Cuba's IMR is the lowest in the Americas, (snip)
based on "statistics" questioned by international experts as reported
Remember, we are STILL waiting for you to cite even one such expert.
(snip)
posted links from various organizations including promedmail
[snip]
Sadly for you, none panned out. In each case, you got your fat fascist
*** kicked!
Nope.
Your sting of lies and falsifications was exposed and you even had to
remove part of your lying webpage
Bull***.
(snip)


What Mr. Lobbyist snipped for obvious reasons:

as it are lies

Bull***. Twice, your own sources for these outrageous claims of yours
have personally written to expose your lies about them. (snip)

False.
All that ever happened is that you made false claims about me and others
and even put some on your website.
The third parties and I have alkays acted to have your lies removed and
exposed.

fact.
Part of your website was removed under threat of denial of service
because the sender of the message of which you obtained a copy under
false pretense and I contacted your ISP to have it removed

[snip]
(snip)

Nope.
fact.
the web page you so desperately wanted to keep that you copied it in to
SCC when you finally were forced to remove it is gone.
As usual the facts expose your lies.

And, despite your best efforts, the food situation had already begun
to improve (snip)
The FAO report of 1 year later shows 13% of undernourished according to
the best data at hand

They were referring to averages over the period 1998-2000.(snip)

which was the latest data available when both the FAO and Oxfam wrote
their reports.
13% of undernourishment

The WFP is even today giving food aid to 7% of the Cuban population

[snip]

Remember, we are STILL waiting for your proof that WFP has ever
amounted to (snip)

it amounted - as shown by various links - to ten of thousands of tons of
food (rice, beans, ...) over more than 5 years.
The WFP only acts when a pressing need is present.
773,000 have pressing needs according to the WFP

Again, the rationing system provides only about a quarter of the Cuban
diet. (snip)
and you can't explain where the rest comes from.

[snip]

Other markets, idiot!

like which and at what prices

If you had any local knowledge at all, you would
as you yourself have admitted I have local knowledge and I know what the
real situation and prices are.
CUC 1.5 for a litre of cooking oil in the dollar shops (37.5 pesos =
more than 10% of a monthly wage)
The best proof that you know yourself that you are a liar is that you
don't dare to give a budget for a family of 4.
But then Cuban economists have done that already, no?
Cuban economists have calculated (see links above) that a family of 4
needs 1600 pesos a month (about 5 times the average wage) to meet it's
basic needs.

Even Raul has admitted they aren't reliable
He was referring to economic and financial data. (snip)
all data in Cuba is politically influenced comrade Dan.
I have posted proof from health; education and the economy.
Raul admitted that Cuban data is flawed.
Nothing about health data (mortality stats, etc.) (snip)
all about all data


Show us your proof. We know you can't.

Posted over an over again:


Bull***. You currently support murder, torture and genocide (snip)
Nope I don't and you are going to expose you own lies by failing to post
even one quote that support that Mr. Serial Liar.

Remember, we are STILL waiting (snip)

thanks for confirming you are a slanderous liar.
You were again unable to post anything.

No democracy in Cuba and extremely controlled "elections" as the UN
rapporteur reported
http://www.cubaverdad.net/elections_in_cuba.htmhttp://www.cubaverdad.....
And this report was rejected(snip)
Nope it wasn't comrade Dan.
the fact that due to abstentions no political consequences were attached
to the report doesn't change the facts.
The abstentions were intentional(snip)
Political.
But thanks for stating that Cuba had little support.

Thanks for confirming the Empire got its fat fascist *** kicked!


Nope.
A new rapporteur was soon in place.
The ones that suffered were the Cuban people

Abstentions stopped sanctions.

No sanctions were proposed, idiot(snip)

Yep: more inquiries and a demand to the Cuban government to report and
correct

Nowhere the report was ever criticized even for one iota.


Pay attention, Mr. Lobbyist: According to YOUR link, a resolution that
merely commended the report and called for the Cuban government to
abide by its recommendations -- nothing else(snip)

actually with more.
But that isn't the issue.
the fact there was no political will to follow up on the report doesn't
mean that any of the factual content was rejected as you so desperately
try to claim.

and people can go to prison for reading foreign newspapers that
are deemed ``enemy propaganda.''
Bull***!(snip)
Nope.
fact.
[snip]
Thanks for confirming that you cannot cite even a single case.
False.
see:http://www.cubaverdad.net/crime_of_enemy_propaganda.htmhttp://www..cub......
[snip]
Nothing here about anyone being jailed for reading a foreign
newspaper.(snip)
false.
Lots of reports for reading foreign publications including newspapers.
Don't snip the facts desperate Dan.http://www.cubaverdad.net/crime_of_enemy_propaganda.htmhttp://www.cub......
This is just a search of your lying website,
(snip)

anyone that follows the links will see that they give a large array of
sources unlike your lying website full of "self created" lies that lost
pages because of falsifications.

[snip]

Pure bull***!
(snip)

Nope, a fact.
I guess that that is why you snip the links.

Don't snip the facts desperate Dan.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/crime_of_enemy_propaganda.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/propaganda_enemiga.php
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22propaganda+enemiga%22&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22enemy+propaganda%22&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8



Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary
measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
..................
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate
and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause:
a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
.