Re: Castro's Medical Mercenaries

"Bob" <bob@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:dmdnur$6jh$0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> PL wrote:
>> "Bob" <bob@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:dmbkh7$7d7$0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> PL wrote:
>>>> "Bob" <bob@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:dmas9v$o1i$0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> PL wrote:
>>>>>> Bob wrote:
>>>>>>> PL wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> PL wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> PL wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Dan Christensen" <dchris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:xw_gf.117$bH1.17@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Bob" <bob@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:dm1fi4$mp4$0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan Christensen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PL wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Dan Christensen" <dchris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:pLogf.49$%L5.3@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "PL" <pl.nospam@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:8zngf.53850$4D6.3526708@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too lame to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bother with]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Dan Christensen" <dchris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:Wzmgf.51899$xY2.28838@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "PL" <pl.nospam@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:tg0gf.53107$Gp6.3482656@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>>>>>> But tell me: how do you feel about the fact that Cubans are only
>>>>>> allowed out of the country with a special exit visa (and an re-entry
>>>>>> visa to come back)?
>>>>>> http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you support freedom of movement or do you feel Castro is entitled
>>>>>> to retain people on the island against their will?
>>>>> I think he should let people leave if they wish to.
>>>> So you reject Castro's policies in that area?
>>> Of course! And I am a member of the Communist Party USA. :D
>>
>> What do you mean by "Communist Party USA. :D"?
>
> That's a grin in Internet lingo.
(snip)

I can understand that as a communist you need a "fixed grin".
I prefer a smile: :-))))

>> I only know of one communist party in the USA.
>
> Actually, there are a whole bunch of them.

The usual lot I guess: Stalinist, Trots, reformed, ... retarded.
What is your partly like?

>> Note: as a memeber of that party you must be infavor of freedom of
>> association and freedom of speech.
>
> Yes and actually that party supports "Bill of Rights Socialism" in the US.
> They want to retain full US civil liberties, except, I think, for hate
> speech.

"hate speech" being anything one says againt the party, it's officials, its
policies, its abuese, its "friends", ....?
Fo a member you aren't very sure of what they stand for.
Watch it, this could cost you.

>>>> Given that over 500,000 people entered the US lottery and that each may
>>>> have a couple of family members that want to leave with them we are
>>>> talking about millions that want to leave as they are disenfranchised
>>>> in Cuba.
>>> Well, so it goes.
>>
>> in dictatorships
>>
>>> They all want to go to the US.
>>
>> Nope.
>> They all want to get out and the USA is the only one that runs a lottery.
>>
>>> Let em take off.
>>
>> Don't they have a right to freedom of expression, .... in their own
>> country.
>
> That's for the Cubans to decide.

You mean the people or the regime.
How do you hope to find out what Cubans thinks without freedom od speech?

> Certainly, I think, for pro-revolutionaries, there should be full freedom
> of speech.

Bob, that is a fascist attitude.
Freedom of speech should be available to all.
It is - after all - a human right.

> I can see why they don't want you advocating getting rid of the system,

as they are afriad that people might listen to you and take heart from it
you mean?

> but short of that, you should be able to say just about anything you want,

nope.
Evene that one should be able to say.
You are an enemy of freedom os speech Bob.
You defined yourself as such.

> and even form protest organizations.

but not against the system.
Against what then?

>Especially I would like to see other Left organizations legalized, say
>people advocating Maoism or say the Green Party mindset,

not possible Bob.
They advocate freedom of speech and democracy

> or a mixed economy, or environmental groups,

same remark as above

>or even pro-revolutionary human rights groups.

there are only human rights, not "pro and anti revolutionary human right".
Your fascist nature is showing again.

> I would even like to see pro-revolutionary investigative journalists.

You mean the ones that only eport and investiaget "good news".
Castro has a lot of them already.
The rest he thropws in jail.

> A lot more thing ought to be up for discussion in that country.

Castro decides everything, even that what can be discussed.
You want people to "discuss items" without free speech.
you are (again) contradicting yourself.

>The Marzo 13 incident, the prisons, the prison sentences, the dual medical
>system...there is room for a good Left critique of all of that.

Not in Cuba.
Only room for a good imprisonmet.
Get real Bob.
You don't want free speech.
You want a token discussion with pre-set conclusions.

>> Are you in favor of "political cleansing" of countries?
>
> Not really,

Yes or no please.
I say no.

> but sometimes, I do not know, some places may just need a dictatorship,

Nope.
None does.

> at least until they are mature enough for democracy.

You are insulting all Cubans as "immature".
But what you actually mean is that you support dictatorship untill the
country is politically cleansed and untill all remaining people are suitably
indoctrinated, no?
You are again very close to fascism, Bob.

>I think the Haitian ruling class ought to be thrown out of the country or
>locked up in jail or even killed, if they have blood on their hands. They
>just will not allow any kind of alternative system to exist. So, in Haiti,
>you probably have a choice between Leftwing dictatorship and rightwing
>dictatorship.

Nope.
You ahve the choice of democracy.
After a dictatorship it is hard to rebuild civil society.
Non dictatorship can rebuild civil society.

> In cases where the ruling class will not allow democratic progressive
> change to occur, you need to overthrow the army of the ruling class

You just made the case for the overthrow of Castro

> and probably put in a dictatorship to keep the fuckers down.
(snip)

Nope.
That would just madate that people overthrow you.

> The Chileans?
(snip)
are now building a democracy.

>>> Or maybe make them pay before they leave.
>>
>> Don't worry: they do.
>>
>>> If they just graduated, they can't leave unless they pay off the cost of
>>> their education.
>>
>> How many years of slave labor do you favor?
>
> Well the Russians and Ukranians are doing this right now. It's perfectly
> legitimate if you ask me.

Any links.
I know lots of Ukranians that have left without any requirements.
But then the rulesin Cuba uesd to be (example taken is doctors): two years
of national service.
Then you go in the normal system.
that meant that after the "national" service you were deemed to have repaid
your education.
When Castro realized the "rental value" of doctors (they eran him 750
million dollars a year) the "rules" change:


Medical doctors: the special case.


As lots of university graduates medical doctors have to perform a number of
years of free service for the state. Doctors had to perform 2 years as
service in "payment" for their education. This system has worked for years.
Being a doctor (or other university graduate) was no real impediment to
leave the country once one had completed the 2 years service.


>From 1999 onwards the attitude changed as the Cuban regime had started to
"rent out doctors" to other countries (1) and NGO's. The Cuban government
realized that its doctors had a "commercial value" and that allowing them to
emigrate (even after completing their obligations to the government) would
reduce Cuba's "earning power". Doctors were sent (against payment) to
countries like Venezuela (doctors for oil), Zimbabwe, South Africa, Namibia,
.... The Cuban regime tried to deny these deals (especially in the case of
Venezuela), but was soon disproved. The whole industry of renting out
doctors brings in more than U$ 750 million annually for Cuba. (2)


1999: MINSAP regulation 54.14 (3)
"Moreover, since 1999, Cuban physicians have not been able to leave Cuba
with proper documentation and permits according to the MINSAP regulation
Number 54.14 According to this regulation, medical doctors and dentists must
serve 3 to 5 years in designated areas in the island of Cuba before they are
considered for a permission to leave the island. In this manner, Cuban
physicians are blatantly discriminated and made to suffer higher penalties
than the rest of the professionals. "


Note that it says "considered" for permission. that permission is in no way
guaranteed and this process itself can again take years.


"Resolution 54 denies exit permits to medical professionals until they have
performed 3 to 5 years of service in their profession after requesting
permission to travel abroad."


" In February a group of 31 medical professionals sent a letter to the
authorities protesting the Government's decision not to allow them to
proceed with their legal emigration. These medical professionals were
granted immigrant status by other countries, but the Ministry of Health had
refused to grant them permission to secure exit permits. The doctors made
the document public. The Government responded by terminating their
employment, relocating them to remote and undesirable health care
facilities, or ostracizing them." (4)


In 2002 health minister Damodar Peña Penton said that doctors who want to
emigrate should face stiffer requirements.


"The health department requires that doctors who request permission to
emigrate spend three to five years at posts specified by authorities in the
region where the medial practioners live.
We have to increase the strength of the evaluations of the re-settled
doctors and our control over them," warned Peña during a meeting with
regional medical directors, according to a source who sought anonymity.
A poor evaluation of a doctor who seeks to emigrate means that he or she has
to spend more work time before leaving." (5)


The current situation is one of total dependence of doctors on the
"goodwill" of the Cuban government. The despair this creates is clear.
Marriages brake up and people take to leaving Cuba in an illegal manner as
this doctor did on the "taxi boat".(6)


Footnotes:


(1) "Castro's "Doctor Diplomacy", Originally published in the Medical
Sentinel 2000;5(5):163-166. Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.


http://www.haciendapub.com/article47.html


(2) Venezuela:


"Cuba denies medics-for-oil trade", Sapa-AFP, 10/10/2000.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/81


"CUBAN BARTER SYSTEM DOES NOT FAVOR VENEZUELA", UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE,
Nov. 2000.


http://www.uexpress.com/georgieannegeyer/?uc_full_date=20001103


"Cuba, Venezuela Sign Oil Deal", The Associated Press, October 30, 2000.


http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/venezuela/oil-deal.htm


"Venezuela and Cuba trade oil for doctors", Andy Webb-Vidal and Marc Frank,
Financial Times, October 11 2004.


http://news.ft.com/cms/s/12bd92f8-1bae-11d9-8af6-00000e2511c8.html


"Cuba and Venezuela Deepen Ties with Medical-Oil Swap", NewsMax.com Wires,
July 13, 2005.


http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/7/13/101957.shtml


" Venezuela medics march over jobs", BBC NEWS, 2005/07/15.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4688117.stm


"Using oil to spread revolution", The Economist Newspaper, Jul 28th 2005.


http://www.economist.com/world/la/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4232330


"HOW VENEZUELA SUBSIDIZES THE CASTRO REGIME", Cuba Transition Project, Issue
10, April 2005.


http://ctp.iccas.miami.edu/FACTS_Web/Cuba Facts Issue 10 April 2005.htm


Zimbabwe:


"The income to Castro's purse from this "doctor diplomacy" in Zimbabwe alone
is estimated at $1.2 million (U.S.) per month."


Gaither C. Diserción en Zimbabwe empaña la "diplomacia médica" de Castro. El
Nuevo Herald, June, 12, 2000.


Total:


"According to a Cuban economist, overall earnings from the export of
medical, teaching and other professional services could reach $750m (?586m,
£404m) this year, most of it from Venezuela."


"Castro's doctors give Chávez shot in arm", Financial Times, 2/9/05.


http://www.americas.org/item_17883


(3) "Castro's "Doctor Diplomacy", Originally published in the Medical
Sentinel 2000;5(5):163-166. Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.


http://www.haciendapub.com/article47.html


Also: "GRADUACIÓN CIENCIAS MÉDICAS CURSO 2002-2003"


http://www.16deabril.sld.cu/rev/213/graduacion.html


(4) "Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2001", Released by the
Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, March 4, 2002


http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/wha/8333.htm


(5) "Health minister asks tighter restrictions on doctors who want to
emigrate", Omar Ruiz, Grupo Decoro, Cubanet, December 9, 2002.


http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y02/dec02/09e1.htm


"Ministro de Salud pide más rigor para médicos que quieren emigrar", Omar
Ruiz, Grupo Decoro, Cubanet, 6 de diciembre, 2002.


http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y02/dec02/06a3.htm


(6) "Floating taxi family hails ride out of Cuba", New York Daily, June 21,
2005.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/320936p-274452c.html


http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm#Medical_doctors:_th...


among the migrants on this latest trip is a doctor named Nivia
Valdez Galvez. She was given a U.S. visa last year, but was not allowed to
leave because the Cuban government requires five years of service for
medical personnel. Her son, Pablo Alonso Valdez, 16, was prohibited from
leaving because he is nearing the age to serve in the Cuban military,
Sanchez said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/11848710.htm


>> If free education is a right why should that right have to be paid for if
>> one doesn't agree with the politics of the "leader"?
>
> Well they used (extensive) state resources to get that fancy medical
> degree and then you are supposed to allow them to take off and just all
> the medical education down the drain? The state paid for that education on
> grounds they would serve the ppl, not take off for Miami.

Translated: education is no right it is a priviledge the state gives you in
exchage for slave labor.
I see "fascist" again Bob.
If education is a right then it can have no conditions attached.

>>> A lot of countries are setting exit fees and making people pay the costs
>>> of their education if they wish to emigrate.
>>
>> Can you quote some examples so we can compare?
>
> Yes, Peru has an exit fee of $200-$300 and I guess it is some sort of
> democracy. Too many ppl were taking off.

In Cuba you pay more for the carta de invitacion, passport and carta blanca.

>> Any democracies?
>
> Yes Russia and Ukraine make them pay back the cost if they had an
> expensive education, esp a medical degree. Or maybe work it off for a
> while.

Not to my knowledge.
Any evidence you want to share.
You always are very lacking in facts and links.

>>>> Don't you feel that it is time for Castro to end the repression and put
>>>> his real popularity to the test?
>
>>> I really think they ought to open up the system there a lot more. I
>>> don't know if that means multiple parties or any of that, although of
>>> course I support multiple parties everywhere else. That's for them to
>>> decide.
>>
>> Who is "them"?
>
>> The regime or the people.
>
> I think it is for the people to decide.

so you already have stated that you wants to deny those that are against the
regime freedom of speech.
How can "the people" then decide.
You want only those "in faovor" of the regime to be allowed to speak.
Nope Bob, won't work.

>> If there is no freedom of expression how can the people express its will?
>
> There is freedom of expression, to some extent.

Nope.
None whatsoever (see www.cubaverdad.net)

> There are university professors in Cuba debating a multiparty system as we
> speak. They are

andthey are OK as long as they come up with the pre-ordained conclusions you
mean.

>> If no "candidates" but those pre-selected and pre-approved by the regime
>> can be "elected" how can the assembly claim any legitimacy.
>
> Well, the local people's assemblies were good things.

If people where allowed to freely express themselves and were allowed to
freeley endorse candidates, maybe.
But even that isn't the fact (and you don't support it).
What is wrong with allowing anyone to stand and just let the electorate
decide?

>>>> Are you a Stalinist (like comrade Dan) or a democratic communist?

Please answer the question.

>>> I am not against free elections. Heck, why not. I am aware of the
>>> arguments against them, but I don't really like them.
>>
>> You would prefer to impose your will on others?
>
> I would prefer multiparty systems in most cases.

in the cases that you are sure to win I guess.
get real Bob, your democratic veneer is very thin.

>>>> Why not have free and fair elections where all can stand?
>
>>> I guess that is up to the Cubans.
>>
>> and pray tell me how do Cubans make their feelings known.
>> There is no freedom of expression and the "elections" are referred to the
>> the UN as:
>>
>> "the electoral process is so tightly controlled that the final phase, the
>> voting itself, could be dispensed with without the final result being
>> substantially affected"
>> See: http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord1998/vol4/cubachr.htm
>> and
>> http://www.cubaverdad.net/elections_in_cuba.htm
>
> People can discuss these things. Professors are as we speak.

as long as they come up with the pre-ordained conclusions.
we know that.
That has nothing to do with democracy and freedom of speech (neither of
which you support).

> If a majority wants free elections, they will have them.

but you deny those that are aginst the system freedom of speech.
So tell me: how will you know what the majority wants if you deny all that
are against the regime freedom of speech?

> We know these Communist regimes are not invincible. The whole Eastern bloc
> and Mongolia all went down. Cuba can go down too. (snip)

It helps to be an island I guess.

>>> Castro is doing a lot of good things for the people so he is ok by me.
>>
>> he also turned a first world country (third developed in the Americas) in
>> to a third world nation.
>
>> But can I therefore assume you don't care for the freedom of speech and
>> human rights of Cubans?
>
> I think Castro has gone way too far persecuting ppl for speaking their
> minds. Pro-revolutionaries ought to be able to say what they want.

News flash: he mainly prosecutes anti-Castrists.
He just purges his own ranks from time to time.
News flash 2: all Cubans have the right to speak freely and be heard.

>> Note that some people used to say Hitler did a lot of "good things" for
>> the Germans (highways, emplyment, ...)
>
> Bad comparison.

Nope.
A good one.
maybe you should read Roesenberg once on the origins of "National
Socialism".
You maight be very surprised about the similarities in rhetoric.

>>> They are just kicking ass on the rest of Latin America and even the US
>>> in so many ways,
>>
>> if you buy in to Castro's statistics you mean.
>
> Well, the CIA does.

Nope.
the report them.
they don't endorse them.
Neither does the WHO.

People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health
representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians
have confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is
politically
influenced (e.g., if dengue were declared wiped out, then physicians could
report the disease only as influenza-like symptoms). "

"WHO and the PanAmerican Health
Organization (WHO's Regional Office for the Western Hemisphere) cannot
report
to the world without clearance from the Cuban government."


See: www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390


The WHO CAN NOT report without clearance from the Cuban
>> Are you impressed by their GNP numbers?
>
> Last few years, 5% economic growth looks good.

Get real.

>> If so: I would advise you to read up on the "personal caclulation" that
>> Cuba uses to calculate the numbers.
>> Always look at reality.
>
> The CIA buys those figures.

Nope.
they don't.
Nobody does: some facts you might ignore:
Cuba will no longer apply the standard UN formula to calculate GNP, but will
add it's own "valuation" of certain goods and services to the calculation.
Lunes 10 de enero de 2005
Expertos ven dificultades


Cuba se aparta de la ONU para medir el PIB
GERARDO ARREOLA CORRESPONSAL


La Habana, 9 de enero. En abierta polémica con el sistema que emplea la
Organización de las Naciones Unidas (ONU), Cuba anunció que reportará el
crecimiento de su economía con base en un método de su propia creación.


El giro en la forma de calcular el producto interno bruto (PIB) fue
impulsado por el presidente Fidel Castro, quien dijo en diciembre de 2003 a
la Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular (ANPP, el parlamento) que ese
indicador no refleja el valor de los servicios gratuitos, y por tanto no
mide adecuadamente el crecimiento en Cuba.


Un año más tarde, el ministro de Economía y Planificación, José Luis
Rodríguez, informó a los diputados que esta vez el PIB se calculó con un
método distinto al del Sistema de Cuentas Nacionales (SCN) que reconoce la
ONU.


En la fórmula cubana, servicios gratuitos como la educación y la salud
fueron computados con valores supuestos, tomados de tarifas de una economía
de mercado, dijo Rodríguez.


Sin embargo, no precisó cómo se hizo el cálculo, qué casos se usaron y con
qué países se compararon los servicios de la isla.


Un economista cubano que pidió no ser identificado, dijo a La Jornada que al
parecer se tomaron bases como estas: "Aquí se hicieron tantas operaciones de
corazón; cuánto valdrían si se cobraran a los precios de equis país?" O
bien: "Hubo un curso de inglés por televisión; ¿cuánto hubiera costado si se
vende en casetes como en tal país?".


Por el método cubano, el PIB creció 5 por ciento en 2004, informó Rodríguez
a la ANPP. Pero la Comisión Económica para América Latina y el Caribe
(Cepal) reportó el indicador calculado en el SCN en 3 por ciento en su
balance preliminar de diciembre último.


La Cepal trabaja con cifras oficiales y coteja sus previsiones con los
gobiernos. Rodríguez no informó el crecimiento según el SCN.


"El resultado hasta ahora es que no se puede saber la situación real de la
economía real en Cuba", dijo el economista.


Un diplomático residente en La Habana opinó: "Los cubanos están en su
derecho de hacer esos y otros cálculos, pero si quieren compararse con el
resto del mundo con las categorías que todos usamos, tienen que aplicar el
método que todos aceptamos; por lo menos podrían darnos las dos cifras".


La difusión exclusiva de un PIB a la cubana añadió un problema a la escasez
de información económica oficial sobre la isla: no se ha publicado aún el
Anuario Estadístico de 2003, que suele aparecer con un año de retraso; el
informe del Banco Central dejó de difundirse en 2002, la última balanza de
pagos reportada oficialmente es la de 2001 y ni siquiera se han hecho
públicos los resultados del censo de población de septiembre de 2002.


Expertos estiman que hay un retroceso en los modestos avances informativos
que tuvo el país al facilitar cifras oficiales desde 1996, después de un
apagón estadístico en la primera mitad de la década pasada, cuando
desaparecieron todos los reportes públicos.


El apagón coincidió con el peor momento de la crisis que siguió a la caída
de la Unión Soviética y la reapertura de informes ocurrió cuando había
síntomas de recuperación.


http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2005/ene05/050110/020n2eco.php


>>> So I support him.
>> (snip)
>>
>> A dictator that violates human rights.
>> You really must feel proud.
>> See: http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
>>
>>>>>>>> But then there are economic migrants (with few death on the borders
>>>>>>>> no mostly due to the criminal coyotes that rob people) and then
>>>>>>>> there are people fleeing a dictatorship and repression.
>>>>>>> Most Cubans are probably economic migrants, I would think.
>>>>>> Again: you are entitled to think what you want (in the US).
>>>>>> You think wrong though.
>>>>>> remember: the cause of the problem is the political system.
>>>>>> That drives people away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about the people that died on the "13 de marzo".
>>>>>>>> Do you "shrug" those off as well?
>>>>>>> No. Cuba messed up big time on that one. Time to come clean.
>>>>>> A surprisingly honest reply.
>>>>>> Do you agree that these are unpunished extra-judicial killings?
>>>>> I am afraid so.
>>>> Why "afraid"?
>>> Figure of speech, my friend. Means I reluctantly agree, amidst
>>> disappointment.
>>
>> of what: that the facts are out?
>
> Well I support Cuba, so I do not like to hear these things.


Weird point of view.
I listen, inform myself and then decide whether I support something or
someone.
You support Castro (amybe not fully informed) and get pissed off when
reality contradicts your dogma.
Get real Bob.


>> You have previously indicated - given the impression - that the human
>> rights violations by Castro are not a real issue to you.
>
> Not really true. He persecutes too many pro-revolutionaries.


So persecutintg those that are against the system is OK by Bob. We are
infascist territory again Bob.


>> Why stop at murder?
>
> Well I am really against that.


But you are willing to oversee Castro's murders for the "cause" it seems.


>>>> Are you also "afraid" that you will have to admit that Cuba has no
>>>> freedom of speech, no democracy, ...?
>
>>> No, that is quite clear. Although it's not true that they have no
>>> freedom of speech.
>>
>> Nope.
>> They don't.
>> http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
>> Are you aware of these Cuban laws and how they are used?
>> http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm#Abusive%20laws
>>
>>> They debate all kinds of stuff internally over there,
>>
>> within the limits permitted
>
> I guess, but it's still a lot of discussion.


Nope. That is no discussion. That is theatre.


>>> and people say whatever they want to on the street. Anti-Castro jokes
>>> area mainstay. No one ever goes to jail for that.
>>
>> Just lose his job or education over it you mean.
>
> I do not think so.

In Santiago a man went to jail for two years for this joke/

The question was: what is the utmost expression (colmo) of being a
president?

He replied: letting the people starve from hunger and giving them free
burials.


>> Disrespect to Castro is a crime, no?
>
> Unless you stand up in the middle of a sports event and shout, "Down with
> Castro!" If disrespect for Castro is a crime, they would have to imprison
> 80% of the population.


You can get arrested for what you said in your own home. Do you know what
"chivatos" are?


>>>>>> How about the pilots of the unarmed civilian planes shot down over
>>>>>> international waters?
>
>>>>> No, they got what they deserved. They should have shot them down over
>>>>> Cuban waters, though.
>
>>>> So you say that shooting down unarmed planes is "ok" in your book.
>
>>> Those bastards buzzed Cuban airspace. If "unarmed" planes from a hostile
>>> nation buzzed Washington DC and refused to obey orders from the ground
>> (snip)
>>
>> No attempt was made to force them to land.
>
> There were previous attempts, when they buzzed Havana and dropped
> leaflets.


So you admit that there were no attempts to force these planes to land. they
were just "blown out of the sky" as comrade Dan so eloquently puts it. We
agree there.

>>>> Kind of says a lot about you Bob.
>>>> The fact that they were over international waters is just a aggravating
>>>> circumstance in my opinion.
>
>>> Over Cuban waters, disobeying orders? Down you go!
>>
>> International law states they are to be forced to land (or that should be
>> attempted).
>
> They did that before when they buzzed Havana. I guess the Cubans were just
> sick of those characters.


thanks for confirming they violated intenational law.

Note: you even didn't try to claim that any of the pervious "buzzing" had
any element of danger involved.


>> Note: what where the "orders" given.
>> Where are these transcripts?
>
> There were none, over the ocean. Technically, it was a violation, but I do
> not have much sympathy for morons like that.


Not just technically Bob. It was in fact a violation and I am appaled at the
low value you put on the lives of those that do not agree with you. That
puts you in the "fascist" range again. Think about it.


>>>> Willfully shooting down unarmed civilian planes is a crime under
>>>> international law, even in territorial airspace (should you not know).
>
>>> Not from a hostile nation
>> (snip)
>> There is not state of war.
>> Peacetime rules apply (like it or not).
>
> Well and if a North Korean plane buzzed Washington DC or US airspace?

(snip)

They would try to force it down. Only when that was refuesed and only if
they didn't turn back orders would be given to shoot. Castro gave orders to
shoot down planes that had turned back and that were over international
waters. No comparison Bob.

>>>> They could have forced them to land (had they been over Cuban
>>>> territory), no?
>
>>> They tried that and they flew off. Several times.
>>
>
>
>> Your proof?
>
> Those idiots buzzed Havana more than once previously, dropped leaflets and
> flew away. (snip)

So ne real threat except to the rpide of Castro. Thanks for confirming that.

PL


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