- From: "PL" <pl.nospam@xxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:22:49 GMT
"Polymita" <x@xxx> wrote in message
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:50:31 GMT, "PL" <pl.nospam@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>"Polymita" <x@xxx> wrote in message
>>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 11:36:03 -0400, "PM" <pedro1940@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>NOW TELL ME or to many of us here in this group WHY the cubans fllee
>>> Because if a cuban arrive on the US coast he can stay?(snip)
>>one must have a reason to leave first, no?
> Of course. If you are a poor 3rd nation and by 80 miles you have the
> US you have an excellent reason.
How did it become a third world nation?
Wasn't it the thirde developed nation in the Americas in the late 1950's?
> The same reason that have people from
> Mxico, Colombia, Nicaragua, Cile, etc, etc.
Cuba has another reason no: 40 years of dictatotship.
Just read on the restrictions of freedom of movement.
No such restrictions in Mexico, Colombia, Nicaragua, Chile, etc....
That show that there is something "different" about Cuba, no?
But I am sure you have a good explanation for the violations of the human
rights of Cubans.
Why does Castro need to control all entries and exits in to and out of the
country according to you?
> Do you know cubans that leave Cuba for Hathi or Domenican republic?
They do land there sometimes.
But they also leave for Honduras, Mexico, ...
The stay or go to Brasil (see doctors), Peru and Colombia (academics),
>>>>WHY no one wish to return
>>> Do you that immigrants from 3rd world return to their conutries?
>>Often they want to make the money to set themselves up in their country.
>>Other return after retiring.
> that's strange.
Check on immigrant labor in Europe.
the first generation often returned.
>I know only person that remain in the new country.
> Probably we have different points of view.
You ignore the facts.
No "views" about it.
Note that lots of Cubans would return home once Castro is gone.
>>>> or nobody wish to immigrate there
>>> Do you know someone who wants to immigrate in a 3rd world country?
>>But then it only became a third world country under Castro, no?
> No. Maybe you have to study some modern cuban history.
I don't have to.
You can't deny the facts.
Some facts: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/cuba/wwwh0013.htm
Infant mortality 1959: ranked above Belgium, Gernany, and at par with
Facts you can't refute.
Caloric intake in 1959 was above caloric ontake in 1999.
>>>> ...as compared
>>>>with times before KaSStro when thousands came from Europe to reside and
>>>>in Cuba ?
>>> Maybe you can say that also may us people reside in Cuba... (snip)
>>presently the US citizens residing there are mainly fugitives from the
> I wanted to say that the US citizens who resided in Cuba (before
> castro) mainly were those who had "some trouble" with US law.
So we agree that people with no "legal" reason to go there rarely emigrate
The opposite is true about the flight from Cuba to the USA, no?
That is on the rise again (see people stopped at sea) and there are still
hundreds of thousands of people that participate in the visa lottery, no?
>>>>WHY there are 300 prisons and concentration camps in that island gulag ?
>>actually a lot more: about 545
>>> The United States has the highest prison
>>> population rate in the world, some 714 per 100,000
>>> of the national population(snip)
>>Cuba data: non official and supplied by a Swedish researcher.
> The International Centre for Prison Studies was established in the
> School of Law, King's College, University of London, United Kingdom in
> April 1997. It was launched formally by the Right Hon Jack Straw, Home
> Secretary, in October 1997.
and if you look at the source used it has used the data of a Swedish
>>- " Non-governmental sources have informed the Special Rapporteur that
>>they have recorded the existence of 294 prisons and correctional
>>camps throughout the country; it is estimated that there are
>>100,000 and 200,000 prisoners in all categories; this figure represents
>>very high proportion of the country's population. It is also a matter
>>concern, bearing in mind the fact that the Special Rapporteur is
>>receiving reports on the precarious living conditions in the prisons,
>>as those described below."
> 6. For that purpose, and bearing in mind that most of the external
> sources of information on the situation of human rights in Cuba are
> in the United States of America, he travelled to New York and
> Washington, D.C., from 28 August to 1 September 1995, where he
> had the opportunity to meet with experts on the real situation
> in Cuba
> I prefer an english indipendent centre and a swedish researcher than
> an US based groups.
Since when the UN special rapporteur is not independent?
I will stick to the UN.
>>- " Local human rights activists report that more than 100 prisons and
>>prison camps hold between 60,000 and 100,000 prisoners of all categories."
> It olnly means that "Local human rights activists" have no idea about
> prioners number.
If you read on you will see that there is a consensus on 100,000.
But then how come the Castro regime does not pubish reliable statistics?
>>- " Even the pro-Castro U.N. reported in 1995 that Cuba had between
>>and 200,000 prisoners, and this was before Castro's recent crackdowns. "
> It's the Un source
Yep. The UN again.
>>- " Cuban human rights activists estimate that currently there are about
>>100,000 prisoners in Cuba."
> It's the freedomhouse source
You mean the Cuban diddident source.
>>- "According to Elizardo Sánchez and the CCDHRN, the Cuban prison system
>>is "a tropical gulag with some 300 prisons and labor camps," and the
>>prison population is more than 100,000, or nearly one of every 100 Cubans"
> probably the same freedomhouse source
The director of a local NGO that defends human rights.
>>- " Cuba maintains an estimated 100 prisons and prison camps holding more
>>than 100,000 prisoners."
> It's the freedomhouse source
confirmed by lots of others by now (including the UN)
>>-" Cuba has 100,000 prisoners behind bars, though just 4,000 were
>>before Fidel Castro came to power 45 years ago, according to what
>>call the first study of the "tropical gulag."
>>The president of the Cuban Human Rights and Reconciliation Commission,
>>Elizardo Sanchez Santa Cruz, told journalists the "huge statistic" was
>>bitter fruit of the totalitarian system."
>>http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/may04/12e8.htm from Yahoo.
> probably the same freedomhouse source
Nope. The same Cuban NGO
>>- " The London-based International Centre for Prison Studies estimates
>>the number of prisoners in jails in Cuba is at least 100,000, the largest
>>per capita prison count in the world. "
> false. ca 50,000 http://www.prisonstudies.org/
Correct, check with them.
They also used the 100,000 number. (see below)
>>- "It's official. The International Center for Prison Studies in London,
>>England has just released a report citing Cuba as the largest per capita
>>prison gulag in the world, with a network of prisons and work camps that
>>have mushroomed on the island since Castro took power.
>>The Center, considered an authority on world incarceration systems,
>>estimates that there are 100,000 prisoners languishing in over 200 prisons
>>and work camps in Cuba. This figure indicates that with a population of
>>nearly 11.3 million inhabitants, there are approximately 888 prisoners for
>>every 100,000 people. A 1995 United Nations report on the status of human
>>rights in Cuba pegged the number at between 100,000 and 200,000
> *LOL* Canf... be serius
Confirming what Hickey said.
>>-" A prominent Cuban human rights activist said that the island's prison
>>system has grown dramatically since Fidel Castro's government came to
>>in 1959. Elizardo Sanchez of the independent Cuban Commission for Human
>>Rights and National Reconciliation presented what he said was the first
>>fairly detailed study of the evolution of the prison system under
>>Sanchez displayed side-by-side maps of the prison system in 1959 and
>>the first a scattering of 14 dots on the map of Cuba, the second a
>>constellation of what he said were 200 prisons and detention camps that he
>>said constitute "a tropical gulag." Sanchez said Cuba had about 4,000
>>prisoners in 1956 and about 100,000 today -- a figure similar to that used
>>by some international human rights groups. He acknowledged that the
>>were not precise, but said the government "has exact information about the
>>total number of people now imprisoned in our country" and he urged
>>to make it public. (AP, 11/5/04) "
> Still the same source...
One of the sources.
>>Using the lower end of these UN estimates confirmed by the other sources
>>the true picture sis seen:
>>100,000out of 11 million is 909 per 100,000 versus 718 for the USA
>>Note according to a 1995 UN report the number of prisoners in Cuba is
>>between 100,000 and 200,000.
>>I took the lowest.
> Probably the 100,000 is the same of Elizardo Sanchez. But there is not
> official data.
neither is the estimate of the Swedish professor.
>We have only his word. It's not enought
It is data accepted by the UN.
More than enough.
But you don't deny that Cuba has over 500 prisons.
100,000 would mean an average of 200 per prison. Not unreasonable, no?
Lots of Cuban prisons contain thousands of people.
Just do some research on this on:
>>>>NOW GO AND DO YOUR GOOD SEARCH OF WHAT WAS CUBA PRIOR TO 1959
>>>> AND WHAT IT HAS BCOME...START LOOKING IN THESE SITES...
>>> Try to ask to cubans how cuba was prior to 1959.
>>How about Castro, Armando Hart, Elias Escalante?
>> Cuba, the "Pearl of the Antilles," though by no means a paradise, was
>>as many believe, an economically backward country. Castro himself admitted
>>that while there was poverty, there was no economic crisis and no hunger
>>Cuba before the Revolution. (See Maurice Halperin: The Rise and Fall of
>>Fidel Castro, University of California, 1972, pgs. 24, 25, 37)
> I haven't this book :-)
Time to get it then, no?
Also get some other books by him.
Just go to this page for more information about this friend of Che.
>>Armando Hart, a member of Castro's innermost ruling group, made the
>>extremely significant observation that:
>>. . . it is certain that capitalism had attained high levels of
>>organization, efficiency and production that declined after the
>>Revolution. . . (Juventud Rebelde, November 2, 1969; quoted by Rene
>>Dumont, Is Cuba Socialist?,
> of course. capitalism was for few person...
You should be less eager to refute what I post and think a moment before
In capitalism consumption is unequal. Producyions is - as Hart points out -
Hart maks the point that the PRODUCTION fell.
You are right to note that consumption fell, but not for the few: for all.
A good example is what happened to the consumption of the staple food of the
Consumption fell by two thirds:
astro's destruction of nutrition.
Rice is the staple of Cuban food. Cubans where no bread eaters. they ate
"After WW2 imported rice was difficult to obtain and costly, so Cuban
farmers had an incentive to grow rice. In 1949 Cuba produced 10 percent of
domestic consumption. In 1960, the year after Castro came to power, the
Cuban rice harvest was 400,000 metric toms, making Cuba for the first time
self-sufficient in rice. During the decade of the fifties, Cuban producers
had successfully adopted the latest methods of rice farming employed in
Louisiana and Texas. From the point of technological expertise, rice
production outstripped that of any other branch of Cuban agriculture; and in
terms of money value, rice became one of Cuba's major crops.
By 1962, with Cuban agriculture socialized, the rice yield was reduced by
50%. The same year, as has already been noted, the rationing of foodstuffs
was introduced, with the rice ration set at 6 pounds per person per month.
.... That lowered per capita consumption by two thirds... More over, for
low-income Cubans, for whom rice formed amore substantial part of their
diet, the reduction was even greater."
M. Halperin, Return to Havana, Vanderbilt University Press, Nashville, 1994,
A well functioning free market ensured that from a shortage in 1949 break
even was achieved by 1960. Castro ruined the industry by 1962. In two years
50% of the annual need in rice were no longer met.
In 1966 the rice ration was again reduced by half to 3 ponds per person per
month. that is down from 18 to 3 ponds since the start of the dictatorship.
The reason was: the deal that Castro himself had made with China on the
supply of rice fell through when Castro didn't deliver the promised support
in their "polemic" with the SU.
(for details on the rice Crisis and the Cuba - China quarrel see: M.
Halperin, Taming of Fidel Castro, Berkeley: University of California Press,
1981, p. 195-207.)
"Thus in 1965, Cuban rice production had dwindled to 50,000 tons..."
M. Halperin, Return to Havana, Vanderbilt University Press, Nashville, 1994,
Why did Castro need to reduce rice productions even further: to grow more
sugar to reach his (foolish) goal of 10 million tons of sugar in 1970.
He never made it, but destroyed the production of a staple food while at it.
Gross incompetence. Criminal negligence.
At the end of 1989 the rice ration was 5 pounds. Down from an average
consumption of 18 pounds before the revolution.
Last I saw that is still the same outside Havana with a 20% larger ration of
6 pounds in Havana.
I can recommend you this book:
Marcelo Fernandez, Cuba y la économia Azucarera Mundial, Havana, 1989,.
"Cuba"s response to economic prosperity has ... been problematic. In each of
the three world sugar booms since the early 60's, Cuba has mishandled
economic policies, over imported, and generated the foundations of a
subsequent economic crisis."
The guy is a professor at Harvard.
Jorge I. Dominguez, "The Obstacles and Prospects for Improved US-Cuban
relations," in US-Cuban Relations in the 1990's, ed. Jorge I. Dominguez and
Rafael Hernandez (Boulder Colo. : Westview Press, 1989, 32.
Castro abandoned all attempts at export substitution and export
diversification in 1963. Castro thereby destroyed the food production in
Cuba for prestige reasons: to achieve more sugar than Batista and to thereby
dominate the sugar market.
Idiotic megalomaniac goals that destroyed the Cuban food production.
Cuba failed to even meet their required "planned" production to meet it's
obligations to the SU.
Castro made Cuba more than ever dependent on one crop: sugar.
The dependence on sugar never declined since the late 1950's: over 75% of
exports. Production rose from 5 to 7.5 million tons between the 70's and
Prices ranged between 10 and 4 cents per pound (except the peak in 1985 of
Mercelo Fernandez said: "Expressed in their real value, the sugar prices[of
the late 1980's] are comparable with those of the decade of the 1930's ...
that is to say, the lowest prices of the century" (Hernandez, o.c., p.5)
Halperin has a great image for the Cuban sugar economy: "Cuba's sugar
dependent economy is on a treadmill: it has to produce more and more sugar
remain in the same place". ( M. Halperin, o.c., p 100)
>>Paul A. Baran, an ardent pro-Castroite in the equally ardent Monthly
>>Review pamphlet, Reflections on the Cuban Revolution (1961)
>>substantiates what every economist, as well as amateurs like Castro,
>>has been saying:
>>...the Cuban Revolution was born with a silver spoon in its mouth. .
>>.the world renowned French agronomist, Rene Dumont, has estimated that
>>if properly cultivated as intensively as South China, Cuba could feed
>>fifty million people. . . the Cuban Revolution is spared the painful,
>>but ineluctable compulsion that has beset preceding socialist
>>revolutions: the necessity to force tightening of people's belts in
>>order to lay the foundations for a better tomorrow. . .(p. 23)
> 50 million? *LOL*... maybe the US could feed the whole world
well they were communist optimists.
But Cuba was self sufficient in rice (with consumpstion per capita three
times as high) in 1959.
Cuba was a net exporter of food.
Enough reason for optimism before Castro, no.
No Cuba is food deficient and a net importer.
>>Theodore Draper quotes Anial Escalante, (before he was purged by
>>Castro) one of the leading communists, who admitted that:
>>...in reality, Cuba was not one of the countries with the lowest
>>standard of living of the masses in America, but on the contrary, one
>>of the highest standards of living, and it was here where the first
>>great . . . democratic social revolution of the continent burst forth.
> Maybe he now lives in Miami and is a canf member :-)
which doesn't change the facts that he said that in Cuba before he was
purged by Castro.
> It's strange that the people with the highest standars of living in
> America made a such revolution. It's very strange...
Nope it isn't.
The revolution was not communist as Che himself admitted.
>From the International Socialist Review.
In the first year of the revolution, Guevara explicitly denied its class
"The Cuban revolution is not a class revolution, but a liberation movement
that has overthrown a dictatorial, tyrannical government."12
12 Che Guevara Speaks: Selected Speeches and Writings, G. Lavan ed. (New
York: Pathfinder, 1967), p. 13.
But this page holds some information you might be interested in:
The Cuban revolution against Batsiat was a middle class nationalist
revolution against a corrupt dictatorial regime.
Workers (controlled by the communists that even had ministers under Batista)
and farmers were not the driving force.
You should read up on the urban resistance (Frank Pais in Santiago for
Pais called Castro a "caudillo". Castro also failed to arrive in Santiago to
help with the local rebellion as he promised.
You need to read up on the Cuban revolution.
>>. . If the historical development had been dictated by the false axiom
>>[revolutions come first in poorest countries] the revolution should
>>have been first produced in Haiti, Colombia or even Chile, countries
>>of greater poverty for the masses than the Cuba of 1958. . . (quoted
>>in Draper's Castro's Revolution: Myths and Realities; New York, 1962,
> I 've seen revolutions in Russia, China, southAsia, Africa, not in US,
> Europe, Canada...
Which confirms the remarks made above, no?
>>Caloric intake Cuba:
>>1959 2682 - 2700
> They are interesting links. Give me some times to read them.
Can I suggest some more reading:
"Mea Cuba", "A view of the dawn in the tropics" (for the story about Camilo
Cienfuegos) - Cabrera Infante.
Lots of data available her:
- video of punsihment cells
- links to 70 human righst reports
- the Monte Rouge video
- the funny Castro and Chavez radio hoax calls
- audio from international press reports on Cuba
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