Bolivia's Evo Morales: Gonzalez-Goodman Intvw

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Bolivia's Evo Morales: Gonzalez-Goodman Intvw

Via NY Transfer News Collective * All the News that Doesn't Fit

[Looks like The Daily News and Democracy Now got two for the price
of one in an hour-long interview with Bolivian President Evo
Morales. Gonzalez's briefer Daily News column (just distributed)
covers much of the same ground and has a number of the same quotes. The
interview was conducted en Espanol at the Bolivian Mission to the UN.

Here's the complete transcript as provided by Democ.Now; we've
only trimmed out the pitching for money and their characteristic
repetitions of the same info before and after each break. -NYTr]

Democracy Now - Sep 26th, 2007
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/26/1442242

Bolivian President Evo Morales on Indigenous Rights,
Climate Change, Iraq, Establishing Diplomatic Relations with Iran,
Che Guevara's Legacy and More

[In a Democracy Now! special, we spend the hour with Evo Morales, the
first indigenous president of Bolivia. In a wide-ranging conversation,
Morales discusses the impact of the war in Iraq on Latin America, warns
against the use of biofuels to reduce carbon emissions and highlights
the importance of indigenous rights. "I am convinced that the
indigenous people are the moral reserve of humanity," Morales said. He
also discusses the enduring legacy of Che Guevara, whether he will stop
sending Bolivian troops to train at the School of the Americas and why
he is establishing diplomatic relations with Iran. "As far as I know,"
Morales said. "[Iran] is not a country that is sending troops to kill
people in other countries." [...]


Interview Transcript:

AMY GOODMAN: Today, a Democracy Now! special: We spend the hour with
Evo Morales, the first indigenous president of Bolivia. He traveled to
New York this week, where he's scheduled to speak before the United
Nations General Assembly today. On Monday, he addressed a high-level UN
meeting on climate change, during which he accused what he called
predatory capitalism of affecting the environment.

Evo Morales first spoke before the UN General Assembly last year, where
he dramatically brandished a coca leaf and vowed never to yield to US
pressure to criminalize coca production. Moraless rise to power began
with his leadership of the coca growers union in Bolivia and his
high-profile opposition to the US-funded eradication of the coca crop.
He helped to lead the street demonstrations by Indian and union groups
that toppled the country's last two presidents.

An Aymara Indian, Evo Morales became the country's first indigenous
president when he was elected nearly two years ago with more popular
support than any Bolivian leader in decades. Since then, he has moved
to nationalize Bolivias oil and gas industry and is seeking a new
constitution that would grant more power to Bolivias indigenous
majority.

Today, we spend the hour with Evo Morales, talking about indigenous
rights, biofuels, the Iraq war, establishing diplomatic relations with
Iran, and the enduring legacy of Che Guevara on Latin America.
Democracy Now!s Juan Gonzalez and I sat down with President Morales at
the Bolivian mission here in New York. I began by asking President
Morales what his message is this year to the UN General Assembly.

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] Last year was our first
experience, my first time at the United Nations, as well as my first
time in the United States. And as the coca leaf stands for and is
symbolic of the struggle of the peoples for land and for their
sovereignty, so last time I was here, it was my responsibility to talk
about how it is that I came to become president of Bolivia.

But today, the most important thing is to talk about the changes
that we're forging in democracy through this cultural and democratic
revolution in my country and at the same time share my enormous concern
and to talk about things that are not just a regional or a local
problem, but a global problem, and that's the environment.

JUAN GONZALEZ: One of the things that has happened, changes,
obviously, is that just a few days ago, more than a week ago, the
United Nations General Assembly passed an important declaration in
terms of indigenous rights. Article 34, specifically, says that
indigenous peoples have rights to promote, develop and maintain their
institutional structures and their customs. How important is this to
Bolivia in the current writing of the new constitution that you're
involved in now?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] First of all, we'd like to
salute, thank and recognize the countries of the world that approved
and voted for this Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples,
just as fifty, sixty years ago, the United Nations for the first time
recognized the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And it's only
now, over 500 years later, that indigenous peoples rights are being
recognized. Happily, there were only a few countries that didn't
support this declaration.

And so, I want to say to the indigenous peoples, but also to the
other peoples who live in the cities, that this is a very important
thing that the struggle for indigenous people's rights has not been in
vain. And it was very important to get organized to mobilize. It took
over twenty years, but, working together, people were able to do this,
to approve this declaration and establish that we are people that have
rights just like anyone else on earth.

In some cases, it will be to recognize the rights of minorities
in some countries, this declaration. In my country, it's to make sure
that the majority is respected, and it will be respect for their
institutions, for their structures. And this is an important
contribution to unity within our country, but not because we have a
declaration behind us recognized by the United Nations. Its important
that, even though this declaration exists, that doesn't mean that we,
as the majority, are going to be vengeful or use this as the majority.

I want you all to know, through the means of communication like
yourself, I want the people of the United States and the people of the
world to understand that the indigenous movement is not vengeful. We
want to live together, respecting the difference and the diversity that
we have. Some of the people in our country, when they saw that this
declaration that came out thats not just a declaration recognizing
indigenous peoples, but also right to land, to self-determination, they
think that we're going to take a vengeful attitude, and Im here to say
never.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you think the message was of the four
countries that voted no: Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the United
States?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] It will be important for not
the countries, but the people who lead those countries, their
ambassadors, their leaders, to reflect and to embrace a recognition of
indigenous people's rights. Im convinced that indigenous peoples are
the moral reserve of humanity. So amongst indigenous peoples, theres
not a mentality of being individualist, personalist or egotistical, and
therefore theres not an attitude of trying to take over resources and
control them for themselves. How nice it would be if those four
countries, or better, for the presidents of those four countries, and
along with the social forces, and especially the indigenous peoples,
join together to save humanity.

JUAN GONZALEZ: But in practical terms, implementing this in your
country is obviously creating many issues. You have thirty-six
different nationalities among the native people. And the battle now,
the constitutional battle over whether you're going to have provincial
autonomy or autonomy for these indigenous nations, how will that work
itself out?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] First of all, dialogue and
concerting, coming together. You're right, though, when you recognize
that there are some small groups in my country that still dont
recognize exclusion and racism as it exists in our country. And that's
why I call on the countries that not only supported this declaration,
but also the countries that didn't support this declaration, to come
together and move forward to recognizing indigenous peoples rights,
but without excluding anyone.

My government will guarantee departmental or state-level
autonomies, but also local-level autonomies and indigenous peoples
autonomies. A lot will depend on the specificities of these different
regions. Sometimes there will be regional autonomies and local
autonomies; sometimes there will be regional autonomies, as well as
indigenous autonomies. And well have to figure out how these different
autonomies are going to work together. When we made our initial demands
as indigenous, original peoples, there were people who reacted to and
rejected our demands. But I want to tell these people now -- and some
people are originally from a place that dates back to a thousand years,
some are much more contemporary, but we all have to learn how to live
together.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: We return to our conversation with the president of
Bolivia, Evo Morales. He's addressing the United Nations General
Assembly today. On Monday, he addressed a high-level UN meeting on
climate change. Over eighty world leaders attended; President Bush did
not. In it, Evo Morales spoke in his speech on Monday about referring
to the need to prevent industrialized nations with their gas emissions
from continuing harming the planet.

Democracy Now!, Juan Gonzalez and I sat down with President Morales at
the Bolivian mission. Juan asked President Morales about the issue of
biofuels.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Id like to ask you about the message that you're
going to be bringing to the United Nations, as well, over the issue of
the use of agricultural products for biofuels, that clearly in Brazil
President Lula has a different perspective. He is promoting the use of
biofuels. What is your perspective on this issue?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] From the time that biofuels
were first talked about, we've seen a spiraling process of speculation
of land. Theres a whole speculation on grains like wheat, not only at
the regional level within countries, but also internationally. So,
therefore, the cost of agricultural products rises. And this is a
product of that moment from which, going forward, people have been
talking about biofuels.

And personally, in our movement, as well, we're convinced that
agricultural products should not be dedicated, directed towards
automobiles, cars, and that lands be dedicated towards old rusted
vehicles. First to people, before automobiles. And thats our
difference.

And we want to debate this, but we don't want to debate it just
as governments or presidents. We want to debate with our peoples, with
the social forces in our countries, and I would even dare to say, at
the South American regional level, submit this to a referendum of the
peoples of South America and let the people say yes or no to different
biofuels. This is something Ive learned from Subcomandante Marcos,
from his messages -- that is, to govern obeying the people. That means
to govern, but respecting the different proposals that social forces
put on the table, because sometimes when a proposal is put on the table
between presidents, arguments arise, and this can even generate
confusion amongst people sometimes. And that's why I consider it to be
very important that people decide with their votes in a referendum
about what the future biofuels is going to be. That would be the most
democratic thing.

AMY GOODMAN: Mr. President, you've just established diplomatic
relations with Iran. When the Iranian President Ahmadinejad leaves the
United Nations General Assembly, New York, this week, he will first go
to Bolivia. Why did you establish diplomatic relations?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] First of all, its important
our peoples are from the culture of dialogue, so we have diplomatic
relations with the United States, we have diplomatic relations with
Cuba, just as we have diplomatic relations with France and with Iran,
but, above all, diplomatic relations for life, for humanity, for peace
with social justice.

In my country, we're going to be opening commercial and
diplomatic relations to establish relationships of complementarity so
that we can resolve the social and economic problems that we confront.
We're never going to establish diplomatic relations to wage aggression
or to hurt or to declare wars or to get involved in arms races. We're
not of the culture of death.

Moreover, I respect the technology, the industrial development in
the area of gas and oil in Iran, and thats what weve seen as
interesting, that we can work together on these issues. And Id like to
agree with you. We haven't ever thought about other issues in our
relations. As far as I know, its not a country that's sending troops
to end other people's lives in other countries. And I admire Cuba very
much, for example, which sends people to other countries to help save
lives.

AMY GOODMAN: Just to follow up on that point, has the United
States weighed in? Has the United States responded to your diplomatic
relations with Iran? And what do you think of the US talking about
perhaps attacking Iran?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] The United States, nor any
other country, can observe or comment or have anything to say about the
relationships that we have with any other countries. Were a small
country, but were a sovereign country with dignity, with the right to
establish relations with whoever we want. If the United States
government reacts, if they would have reacted, it would suggest that
they are still thinking that Latin American countries need to be
subordinate to the United States. But happily, in Latin America, there
are countries with democracies that are liberating democracies, not
subordinate democracies.

AMY GOODMAN: Your vice president has denounced US funding of
rightwing think tanks in Bolivia as intervening in internal affairs of
your country.

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] Former ministers and vice
minister of the government of Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada, who, as you
know, escaped to the United States, and the former President Banzer,
who, may he rest in peace, as well as former President Tutu Quiroga,
these former ministers are financed through foundations, NGOs, to
create this counterweight to the government of Evo Morales. Its
impressive. And what we're asking for is that all international
cooperation be transparent, that it come through formally the central
government.

AMY GOODMAN: What are those groups pushing for?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] First of all, these
neoliberals, the rightwing organizations, the ones who sold out the
country, as we say in Bolivia, is to exhaust the image of Evo Morales
especially. And so, if they have objected, if they want to exhaust Evo
Morales, its to be done with the government of Evo Morales. And these
things circulated on the internet, then pamphlets, [inaudible];
verbatim they say, We have to overthrow this Indian (and leave that
blank), because I can't repeat those words on the radio.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Id like to ask you about the student protests
that broke out recently there and the continuing battle over writing a
new constitution. It's been more than thirteen months, and the
Constituent Assembly, I understand, now is going to start meeting
again. But the battle, especially over this issue of the capital for
Bolivia, what is the significance of the battle over whether Sucre or
La Paz should be the capital of Bolivia?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] Bolivia was founded in 1825,
and the people who were participating, they were only 8% of the
population; they were all mestizos or criollos. But who fought for the
independence from Spain? It was that other 92%; it was the indigenous
peoples. So we proposed to re-found the country, indigenous peoples,
non-indigenous peoples, professional peoples, nonprofessional peoples,
but to transform the country. Therefore, there are sectors that are
seeking to undermine or make sure that the Constituent Assembly fails.

The enemies of this deep structural transformation that we're
pursuing, some of them have entered, are members of the Constituent
Assembly, and they've been working from the very beginning, when the
Constituent Assembly started on 6th of August, 2006, to undermine the
process through the demand for two-thirds, the demand for autonomy, and
now the demand to move the capital of the country.

This issue of where the capital is going to be located is not a
national issue. Its not a problem for the government. Its an issue
for just two departments. And there are families that don't love their
country and who are not working for the majorities, who are working for
those people who have not been respected, the indigenous majorities,
they're talking about where the capital is going to be located as a
tool to shut down the Constituent Assembly.

But what are we working for? What are we betting on? First, as
the government and also as the indigenous movement, to make sure that
the Constituent Assembly concludes successfully. Its the best way to
find unity, equality and justice, to forge that in my country.

And I would like to remember the words of a businessman,
actually, from Bolivia. What did he say before the Constituent
Assembly? Id rather have rocks in my door than bullets. What does
that mean? That I would rather have these sorts of popular
demonstrations and protests happening than a civil war, a fighting war
with bullets.

And now, so that we have neither the protests nor the shooting
war with bullets, we're pursuing this deep structural transformation
through a democratic process, which is the Constituent Assembly. How
are we doing this? Through the creation of writing a new constitution
for the country.

Of course, its going to be difficult to have equality, but to
make those differences between people smaller is possible. Early in the
process, only weeks into the process, they said that Evo Morales was
not going to respect private property. That was another attack, another
attempt to undermine and cause the Constituent Assembly to fail. With
the powerful people above, what we're trying to do is lift up the
people, the humble people, from below, through using the strategic
natural resources that we have to put them on a more equal footing.

And the other thing that they can't accept is, how is it that
what they call the Indians, that they feel for the country and they're
working for their people and that this Indian is governing well? This
is something they can't tolerate. Two facts: the last time that Bolivia
had a budget surplus was in the 1960s during a boom, a tin boom, and
we've been over sixty years always with a fiscal deficit. Last year,
for the first time, in my first year of government, we have a budget
surplus, and Bolivia's international reserves never were more than $1
billion. And this year we're approaching $5 billion in international
reserves. And the modification of the hydrocarbons gas and oil law,
which cost us blood, thereafter the nationalization of gas and oil, has
allowed Bolivia to improve our revenues, the revenues for the country.
An example: in 2005, Bolivia only received $300 million -- $300 million
in 2005 in revenues from state gas and oil, and this year we're going
to be receiving more than $2 billion in revenues from gas and oil. And
this is something they can't accept.

A political class, for them, government was business. It was
enrichment. What they can't accept is that our corruption in Bolivia
has been declining. In the past, Bolivia was considered in the number
two position in terms of the championship for the most corrupt country.
Many international institutions have recognized that corruption is on
the decline in Bolivia. And what these groups don't accept is that this
- -- what they call an Indian can change Bolivia, bring dignity to
Bolivia.

And in this situation, some sectors are talking about the
re-election of Evo Morales, and so this is something that would have to
be become constitutionally permitted. But what do the right, the
neoliberal, the opposition, say to this? And they say we can negotiate
anything, but not the re-election of this Indian. This is the problem.
It's not a problem of where the capital of the country is located. And,
of course, they never liked groups like the ones that you make
reference to that will travel from Santa Cruz to Sucre to agitate, to
stir up these issues. ...

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: We return to our conversation with the Bolivian President
Evo Morales. The Bolivian Supreme Court recently asked the government
to start extradition proceedings for the former Bolivian President
Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada, who lives here in the United States in
Miami. They also asked for an order for him not to be allowed to go to
another country, but to be sent back to Bolivia. I asked President
Morales what the former president is guilty of and whether he thinks
the United States will extradite him.

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] First of all, the United
States cannot, should not receive, protect delinquents from any part of
the world. It is unconscionable that the United States, a democratic
country, would be protecting international criminals like Posada
Carriles. The process has to do with two issues: first of all, human
rights, and second of all, for economic damages done to the state. So
people who massacre peoples, that violate human rights and do economic
damage to countries and their economies have to go to jail. The United
States shouldn't be sitting there waiting for a process to be put into
motion, but rather should kick these people out so that they can be
submitted to justice.

I hope the United States respects these norms and respects the
decision of our Supreme Court. But here, we have an experience. The
last military dictator was sent to jail. And since that time, in
Bolivia, no member of the military dares to threaten a coup detat.
Likewise, any democratic government that violates human rights, that
massacres people or that does economic damage to the state should also
be subject to these sorts of processes, and their leaders should be put
in jail, so that they never dare to do it again either.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Mr. President, you said a few moments ago that
you'd rather have protesters throwing rocks than using guns. In a few
weeks, it will be the fortieth anniversary of the death of Che Guevara.
He died in Bolivia. Looking back at it -- you were a child then -- what
is your sense of the legacy of Che Guevara to the people of Latin
America?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] First of all, in the 40s, in
the 50s, in the 60s -- of course, when I hadnt been born yet -- my
first perception was that people rose up in arms to struggle against
the empire. Now, I see quite the opposite, that its the empire thats
raising up arms against the peoples. What I think is that back then,
that the peoples, they got organized and struggled, looking for
justice, for equality. And now I think that these transformations,
these structural transformations, are being forged through democracies.

And from these two points of view, Che Guevara continues to be a
symbol of someone who gave his life for the peoples, when in Bolivia
and in other countries around the world reigned military dictatorships.
So that's why it's amazing to see that all over the world Che Guevara
is still there, forty years later. But now, we're living in other
times. But to value and recognize that thinking, that struggle, and if
we recognize and we value it, that doesn't mean it means to
mechanically follow the steps that he took in terms of military
uprising.

And thats where, for example, I respect Fidel Castro. In 2003, I
was invited to a conference in Havana, Cuba. And Fidel said the
following: Don't do what Ive done. Do what Chavez is doing:
transformations through a constituent assembly. I think it was a good
teaching, because we've seen the constituent assemblies in Venezuela,
in Ecuador and now in Bolivia, as well, that through democracy we can
achieve structural transformations.

AMY GOODMAN: What is the effect of the war on Iraq in Latin
America, in Bolivia, in particular?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] There is a feeling that leads
to the rejection, the repudiation of the United States government. This
intervention of the United States in Iraq helps anti-imperialist
thinking and feeling to grow. The pretext of fighting against terrorism
and for security, with this pretext, they intervene and create all
these deaths. But there are also other issues, economic issues,
underlying it. I feel that we're in a times of not looking to how to
extinguish lives, but rather how to save lives.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Id like to ask you about the issue of global
warming. It's become a major increasing discussion in many governments
and around the world. From the perspective of the indigenous people of
Bolivia, the future of the planet? And what policies must be adopted,
especially by the industrialized countries?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] So if globalization does not
admit difference and pluralism, if its a selective globalization,
therefore it will be almost impossible to resolve environmental issues
and save humanity. The most important contribution that indigenous
peoples can make is to live in harmony with Mother Earth. We say the
Mother Earth, because the earth gives us life, and neither the Mother
Earth nor life can be a commodity. So we're talking about a profound
change in the economic models and systems.

AMY GOODMAN: Several years ago, Father Roy Bourgeois and others
who founded the anti-School of the Americas movement at Fort Benning,
Georgia, asked that -- came and visited you in the palace and asked
that Bolivia not send soldiers to train at the -- what used to be
called the School of the Americas, a place where Banzer, the dictator,
had trained. Other countries are considering this ban. I think
Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay, Costa Rica have said they won't send
soldiers. Will Bolivia?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] So, it's not just a question
of not sending people. Perhaps it would be better to shut the School of
the Americas. But I understand its also part of the survival and
continuation of [inaudible] and to create a certain interventionist
mindset.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Id like to ask you perhaps a delicate question.
You mentioned earlier your admiration for Fidel Castro. Fidel, before
he stepped down, had been president for more than forty years, before
he stepped down from day-to-day administration in the Cuban government.
President Chavez now has been in office for two terms and is seeking to
change the law to maintain himself in office. Do you think that the
leader of a country, no matter how progressive, should have a limited
amount of time in power?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] To put those kinds of limits
may not be the most democratic. Here, whats important is the
conscience of a people. And so, our proposal, there has to be a way to
revoke leadership roles, but also to ratify leadership, and this is for
mayors, for governors, for regional leaders, as well as for presidents.
If they have the support of the people, then they have every right to
be ratified in power. And mayors, governors and presidents, they can
also be revoked, their mandates can be revoked before they finish their
terms, if thats the will of the people. In fact, Im seeing at this
point that, through ratifying and returning people to power, it
actually becomes an incentive for them to do a good -- and continue to
do a good and better job in their municipalities at the departmental
levels in the positions that they hold, because the people have valued
their work, and that's why they're ratified. But when they are not
ratified, they take advantage of that fact, and they say, OK, Im on
my way out the door, so now is the time to steal, as my mandate is
ending.

AMY GOODMAN: What is your assessment of President Bush?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: [translated] Why would I have to evaluate
President Bush? I respect your country. One concern that I have is that
in Iran -- in Iraq, the massacre of the people cannot continue. I think
that this is something that not only affects President Bush, but
affects all the North American people. I think that in this new
millennium, we fundamentally should be oriented towards saving lives
and not ending lives. The differences continentally between countries,
between regions, these should be discussed. And if theres not
agreements between governments and their presidents, why not submit
these issues to the peoples to be decided upon? This would be the best
way to do democracy now.

AMY GOODMAN: Bolivian President Evo Morales. He speaks today to the UN
General Assembly.


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