Re: Interesting debate/discussion on Ukrainian history (Shuster Live)

On May 24, 5:59 pm, The Black Monk <ch....@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 24, 4:00 pm, Ostap Bender <ostap_bender_1...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:









On May 24, 6:49 am, vello <vellok...@xxxxxx> wrote:

On May 24, 12:38 pm, Tadas Blinda <tadas.bli...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

On May 24, 6:49 pm, vello <vellok...@xxxxxx> wrote:

On May 24, 3:37 am, Ostap Bender <ostap_bender_1...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

We have been over this topic many times before. The Allied victory in
WWII meant enslavement to the Baltics. However, BM and I were
discussing Ukraine, not Baltics.

Not Allied victory but Russian imperialism. Allied victory don't bring
enslavement to any  nation in Western Europe liberated by Western
allies, so let "allies" out of that thing.

And in most of Ukraine, the Allied

victory was the happiest day, and the Soviet and Allied veterans are
heroes (except for those who personally committed NKVD crimes). The
amount of suffering that Ukraine had been subjected to in WWII was
enormous:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Ukraine

Total civilian losses during the war and German occupation in Ukraine
are estimated at 4  million, including up to a million Jews who were
murdered by the Einsatzgruppen and local Nazi collaborators.
-----------------

Add to that several million of soldier deaths.

To forbid the WWII Allied veterans from their own demonstration is as
insane as forbidding the survivors of the Holodomor and/or the
Holocaust from peacefully demonstrating.- Hide quoted text -

Sure. Russian veterans did what is a duty of any honest man - fight
invading foreign army till homeland is free again and enemy is beaten.
Glory them!

I'm sure you mean your comments to refer only to the territory of the
Russian Federation.  The Soviet Army had no business hanging around
anywhere else.  And again, I don't need reminding about the realities
of life, but a lot of people, especially young ones, need reminding
that what the Russians did was barbaric, and saying, "Well, that was
the 1940s" is no excuse.  As I said in another post, having black
slaves was wrong in any century, it doesn't get you off the hook to
say "people were less civilised then".  Because it's not even true for
back then.  For example, the Europeans got slaves from Africa, not
Europe, because they knew no one would come to the black slaves'
defence.  That's morally reprehensible.  Similarly, when the Russians
were looking to expand Westward, they chose the Baltics, not
Scandinavia, because they thought the Baltics were a softer target.
Again, morally reprehensible.

By the way, lest we forget, just like the Russians shamelessly grabbed
the Kurill Islands after WII had already finished, the made a similar
shameless grab for the Danish Island of Bornholm.

Wikipedia:  Bornholm was heavily bombarded by Soviet forces in May
1945. German garrison commander Gerhard von Kamptz refused to
surrender to Soviets, as his orders were to surrender to the Western
Allies. The Germans sent several telegrams to Copenhagen requesting
that at least one British soldier should be transferred to Bornholm,
so that the Germans could surrender to the western allied forces
instead of the Russians. When von Kamptz failed to provide a written
capitulation as demanded by the Soviet commanders, Soviet aircraft
relentlessly bombed and destroyed more than 800 civilian houses in
Rønne and Nexø and seriously damaged roughly 3,000 more during 7–8 May
1945.

During the Russian bombing of the two major cities on 7 May and again
8 May, the Danish radio was not allowed to broadcast the news because
as it was thought it would spoil the liberation festivities in
Denmark. On 9 May Soviet troops landed on the island, and after a
short fight, the German garrison (about 12,000 strong) surrendered.
Soviet forces left the island on 5 April 1946.- Hide quoted text -

I think Russians had all the right to go up to Berlin like allies went
over Frence, Belgium and Netherlands - as liberators, not as "winners"
of two fighting imperial powers.

The Soviets had  all the right to go up to Berlin, but they had no
right to keep Baltics and Eastern Europe against their will.

How about Ukraine?

West Ukraine? Of course. West Ukrainians hated communism/socialism.
.

Relevant Pages