Re: Lithuanian independence - 20th anniversary
- From: vello <vellokala@xxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 02:23:39 -0700 (PDT)
On Mar 27, 1:22 am, The Black Monk <ch....@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 26, 6:55 pm, vello <vellok...@xxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 26, 11:00 pm, The Black Monk <ch....@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 26, 3:55 pm, vello <vellok...@xxxxxx> wrote:
The Nazis never won an election in Austria and indeed Nazi Germany
invaded right before an Austrian referendum on unification with
Germany. OTOH Nazis came to power in Germany through democratic
means. Germans - specifically Protestant Germans - were responsible
for Nazism. Here is the German electoral map:
With freedom comes repsonsibility, and protestant Germany which freely
elected Hitler was the only place in the world responsible for
Nazism. Whether indivividual Austrians or whoever played important
roles in Nazism is irrelevent for the purposes of national
responsibility. Otherwise we can blame Latvia for Bolshevism, right?
I think that even accusing germans as nation may be wrong and not
justified: there were no war, KZ camps and gas chambers on their pre-
election posters :-). Germans vote for young energy-full group of
politicians promising to finish with corruption and powerty - and to
rebuild new, better Germany. If you want to accuse germans, you may do
it on grounds they were unable to stop nazis when they finished with
democracy in Germany.
When was Mein Kampf written? And this happened before the German
protestants voted for the Nazis:
On June 4, the Reichstag was dissolved and new elections were called
for the end of July. On June 15, the ban on the SA and SS was lifted.
The secret promises made to the Nazis by Schleicher had been
Murder and violence soon erupted on a scale never before seen in
Germany. Roaming groups of Nazi Brownshirts walked the streets singing
Nazi songs and looking for fights.
"Blut muss fliessen, Blut muss fliessen! Blut muss fliessen
Knuppelhageldick! Haut'se doch zusammen, haut'se doch zusammen! Diese
gotverdammte Juden Republik!" - the Nazi storm troopers sang.
"Blood must flow, blood must flow! Blood must flow as cudgel thick as
hail! Let's smash it up, let's smash it up! That goddamned Jewish
The Nazis found many Communists in the streets wanting a fight and
they began regularly shooting at each other. Hundreds of gun battles
took place. On July 17, the Nazis under police escort brazenly marched
into a Communist area near Hamburg in the state of Prussia. A big
shoot-out occurred in which 19 people were killed and nearly 300
wounded. It came to be known as "Bloody Sunday."
Well Bloody Sunday I know happens in St. Pete :-)
Papen invoked Article 48 and proclaimed martial law in Berlin and also
took over the government of the German state of Prussia by naming
himself Reich Commissioner. Germany had taken a big step closer to
Hitler now decided that Papen was simply in the way and had to go.
"I regard your cabinet only as a temporary solution and will continue
my efforts to make my party the strongest in the country. The
chancellorship will then devolve on me." - Hitler told Von Papen.
Without such hope no one can become a party leader even in modern
society. Parties are created to obtain maiority and get top jobs in
The July elections would provide that opportunity. The Nazis, sensing
total victory, campaigned with fanatical energy. Hitler was now
speaking to adoring German audiences of up to 100,000 at a time. The
phenomenon of large scale 'Führer worship' had begun. On July 31, the
people voted and gave the Nazis 13,745,000 votes, 37% of the total,
granting them 230 seats in the Reichstag. The Nazi party was now the
largest and most powerful in Germany.
So the German Protestants knew who the Nazis were, and they voted for
them anyways in March 1933.
We may discuss about "protestants" being anti-jewish but historically
there will be little support for that thesis. Protestant nations had
experience of 400 years of full literacy back then what may (or may
not of course) leave a lesser space for crazy ideas. Fo me list of
fully protestant nations seems more sounding: Estonia,Finland, Sweden,
Norway, Danemark, Netherlands.
I was speaking specifically of German Protestants here. The electoral
map shows that the Nazis won only in Protestant areas. The reason I
specified "German Protestants" when discussing responsibility for
Nazism was simply because they are the ones who voted for the Nazis.
Blaming Catholic Bavarians for Nazism is as ridiculous as blaming
Californians or people from Massachussets for 8 years of Bush's rule.
I was simply being accurate and fair.
As I say there are more natural reasons behind election results then
creating a theory that "german protestants" are totally different from
all others - they are not. One reason I put in my earlier post -
strong support to nazis was in regions close to areas lost to Poland.
Other is as (or even more) important: nazis get biggest support in
Preussen. Preussen was for united Germany almost the same what Russia
was for Soviet Union "a state-building nation". For prussians, united
German Reich was biggest achievement prussians ever had. For some guy
in Bavaria, there was a lot of space to think is it better to live
under prussian rule in united Germany or as independent peaceful
Bayern Kingdom. So prussians feel himself much more sad about losses
How much I know those are countries
with minimal (if at all) record of anti-jewish pogroms/actions. One
way to read "election map" is that areas more close to territory what
was cut to Poland after Versailles were more motivated to support a
guy promising restoration of nations territorial integrity.
No, because Protestant areas in extreme southwestern Germany also
voted for Nazis:
Moreover, within Bavaria a pocket of Nazi voters existed, not
coincidentally, near Nuremberg which happens to be a Protestant
enclave within generally Catholic Bavaria.
Don't know roots of those protestant enclaves, but being protestant,
it is highly possible that they follow ways of thinking in northern
protestant dominated prussian areas. I can't see any reason faith is
someway involved in those processes. If you think so, just make clear
how "german protestants" are so different from other protestants.
About "blut muss fliessen" - don't know how popular was that song,
Horst Wessel and some others much more known. But it was time of hard
words, other groups singing about killing down capitalists march under
the same red banners and maybe there were more. Germans want "law and
order" in bancrupt and corrupted Weimar state back then - and Adolf
was guy promising to fulfill that desire.
About Main Kampf - hardly %% of germans reading that book was higher
then %% of people who had read "European constitution" today.
Political books are reading matter for small minority. Sadly I don't
find (during very brief search) key slogans of Nazis for 1933
elections. but surely it is not too hard to find them - and this way
to find out, for what germans voted in 1933.
Mein Kampf was a best-seller that most German families owned, AFAIK.
Before 1933?!?!?! After 1933 - for sure, it was a popular wedding
gift :-) There was no house without Stalin's book in SU - even if
house owner was illiteral.
Accusing nations in something seriously, not as synonyme of actions
taken by govt of particular nation, seems not too serious or me - like
accusing tanks or guns. We live on this planet as individuals and sole
thing what may carry responsibility is a man or woman as individual.
When people vote they are responsible for their actions.
Don't forgot that "Germans" will cover SS-men but also German
democrats and germans of jewish faith - it would be too much to accuse
him for being german :-)
And the majority of German Protestants voted for Nazis even after Nazi
racism and glorifcation of violence was quite clear.
And maybe maiority of left-handers, numismatics etc etc. No way it say
something about ALL numismatics - just about those numismatics voting
for nazis. And before accusing even that part of numismatics, we must
learn for what they voted: was there some program a la "we build 100
KZ camps and 50 gas chambers per year, we start war agains all other
countries, we close all democratic media, most important - we finish
with that stupid elections thing coz we know better then you what you
want" in nazi agenda back in 1933. If we digg out that in real slogans
there were words about a "New, stronger and healthier Germany, about
fight with poverty and unemployment etc etc" - there is not much in
what we can accuse even numismatics voting for nazis. We can't accuse
them in inability to predict that nazis will use democratic process to
end with democracy, agreed?
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