Re: Most Russians wish Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian were "Kim"

In article
<aa4b1a36-a019-4065-bba9-14847d3f6c22@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Tadas
Blinda <tadas.blinda@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Aug 2, 9:56=C2=A0pm, hol...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Eugene Holman) wrote:
In article
<0d465a63-f87c-4013-b8aa-7360b43dd...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Tada=
s

Blinda <tadas.bli...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

<deletions>

How many native speakers of English do you have? Is there an
English-speaking minority in Lithuania that can legitimately claim the
status of a national minority?

You are still thinking in 20th century terms. This is the 21st
century, and the English-speaking community consists of resident
expats, wherevere they come from, la cr=C3=A8me de la cr=C3=A8me. They hav=
e
money and prestige and they are catered to.

This I understand quite well. But they are at most a few thousands, far
smaller than the 8 to 10 per cent of the Lithuanian population ­ thus some
350,000 people ­ that uses Russian as its preferred public language.

I have had more success speaking Russian, German, or even Yiddish in
Lithuania than I have had speaking English.

Well, you are doing something wrong.

No, I was not necessarily in the center of town. In Vilnius and Kaunas I
was able to find people who spoke English, but found Russian to be better
in modest bars and restaurts. In S^iauliai I had to use Russian, German,
and my (at that time still) basic tourist Lithuanian. I think I have
recounted here my story about helping a Finnish family at Vilnius central
railway station. The lady manning (ladying?) the information counter only
spoke Lithuanian and Russian, the Finns were trying to find out simple
information about a train connection to Riga that, as it turned out, only
ran every second day. Nobody could or wanted to help them as they asked
passersby if they could help them in English. This was, admittedly, in
1996. I would be more than surprised if Russian had not been replaced, or
at least joined, by English now.

I get daily Google Alerts on the
word Lithuania, and all sorts of foreigners are constantly reporting
their pleasure at how many Lithuaninas speak English these days.

Which is to be welcomed and completely expected. My argument is simply
that Russian has deeper roots and a far larger critical mass in Lithuania,
and is not going to go away, despite the advance of English. Eventually,
the Russian-speaking minority will be regarded as a legitimate minority
entitled, as taxpaying citizens, to interact with and receive services
from the state in Russian. It is unlikely that the English-speaking expat
community will ever have the clout or numbers to pull something like this
off even if, as is the case in Finland, English will probably become an
unofficial "third" langauge that can be used to a limited degree to
interact with the state.

What about tourists from the Baltic countries, Belarus, and Ukraine, not
to mention Russia?

I have heard it with my own ears many times: they address hotel
staff, etc in English.

In the better quality hotels (where I am sure you hang out), I would
expect as much. But what about the more modest hotels, motels, and camping
grounds? What is the main commercial language at the famous used car
market outside of Vilnius, where so many buyers and sellers are from
Belarus?

Russian is the second language of
middle-aged and older adults. English will eventually usurp many of its
functions as the younger generation grows older. Still, the presence of a
Russian-speaking national minority a well as the fact that Russian is bot=
h
a regional lingua france (Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia), as well as
the language of Russian tourists with rubles, now a serious currency, in
their pockets gives it an advantage over English, which is popular and
"cool", but far more alien to the environment.

Sorry, that's nonsense. English has infiltrated everywhere, and
Lithuania is no exception. I know for a fact that all serious
business (not mafioso ***) between Lithuania and Russia is conducted
in English. Ditto all major international conferences, trade affairs,
gatherings of artists, scolars, etc. You would be a laughing stock if
you tried to make Russian the lingua franca of those functions.

Once again, I am in perfect agreement with you on these points. But these
are the kinds of events that attract educated, internationally minded
people. I'm thinking more in terms of places like gas stations, outdoor
markets, and places catering to tourists from neighboring countries such
as camp grounds, cafeterias, and, of course, public transportation, banks
and the police.

It's elementary, dear Holman: no young person here (or person of any
age, for that matter) dreams of emigrating to Russia,

I have heard differently. Ireland and the UK are no longer as attractive
as they once were, while Russia has a shortage of professionals in many
fields. Russian wages are far below those in the UK and Ireland, but they
can be competitive with the wages paid in the Baltic countries. Russia is
not longer an economic basket case, and it certainly attracts people from
neighboring countries =C2=AD even if they abhor admitting it.

Nice try, but no buy. I won't waste time chasing stats, but I would
guess that the number of Lithuanian citizens moving long term to
Russia annually is not over three figures, and I bet most of them are
ethnic rooskies anyway.

The information on *Lietuviai Rusijoje* at the website of the Lithuanian
embassy in Moscow (http://ru.mfa.lt/index.php?-2029823566) gives an
extensive list of the various Lithuanian organizations in Russia. On the
basis of the number and geograhical spread of these organizations, I would
suspect that the number of ethnic Lithuanians who are temporary workers,
businessmen, or Russian citizens, numbers in the tens of thousands. In St.
Petersburg two weeks ago I saw a few long-haul trailer trucks with
Lithuanian logos. I don't know what was in them, but import-export
business as well as tourism between Russia and the Baltic countries is
quite evident in St. Petersburg, and both Russians and citizens of the
respective countries are needed to run and coordinate these activities.
Lithuanian produce - particularly mushrooms, cheese, and fish products -
was prominently displayed in the food shops.

Plus they know that English will
always be useful everywhere, which cannot be said of the creature of
the Cyrillic.

No argument with you there, either. For most people, though, everywhere i=
s
not as important as here and now. Russian is the language of between 8 an=
d
10 percent of the Lithuanian population, is widely spoken by Lithuanians
over the age of 35 or so, and is widely spoken in the neighborhood
(Kaliningrad, Belarus) as well as, arguably, by more tourists than
English.

Wrong. You seem to be blocking your ears to my eye-witness testimony
that I have hear lots and lots of rooskies speaking English to people
in the tourist business. Let's face it, you can't force a kid to
speak Russian if he simply does not know how, or a person of any age,
if they are not willing to do so (and they number of Lithuanians who
are not able or willing to do so grows annually).

We're arguing basically them same thing. The language situation in
Lithuania is in a state of transition, a dynamic that is starting, as you
correctly point out, with the younger people and in the more affluent and
educated classes. The amount of English as opposed to Russian used in
Lithuania as a second language correlates roughly with age (older people
speak Russian better, younger people speak English better, young being
defined as approx. 35 and under), level of education and sophistication
(better educated, spohisticated, internationally minded people speak
English but, particularly if middle-aged or older, could probably speak
Russian, even if they would prefer not to, while people with a more modest
education and more limited horizons probably speak rudimentary English and
no Russian if they are young, and relatively fluent Russian and limited
English if they are older, with many people who are elderly (70+) possibly
speaking some Polish, German, and/or Yiddish). To this we have to add the
fact that approx. 10% of the population, whatever their education, age, or
aspirations, has Russian as its preferred public language, with fair to
perfect Lithuanian as their second language, and particularly if they are
young, good to excellent English as their third language.

If you go to a Lithuanian news stand, what percentage of the newspapers a=
nd
magazines are in Lithuanian, Russian, and English? How much locally
produced printed media is in Lithuanian, Russian, and English?

Outside of Vilnius, Klaip=C4=97da and Visaginas =E2=80=93 very little in Ru=
ssian.
Besides, even in the places just mentioned the Russian stuff is mostly
"yellow press", whereas the English stuff consists of everything from
the world's most reputable newspapers and journals (The Economist,
Time, Newsweek, etc) right through the spectrum to girly magazines and
stuff for truckers, bikers and car customisers. The russky stuff is
bought mostly by blue collar workers. Just like the garbagey Russian
TV here is mostly watched by them.

You avoided the second question. I asked how much *locally produced* media
is in the three languages. I know that there is some kind of Vilnius City
Newspaper in English, but wonder if there are any other locally produced
English medium periodicals. What about radio and television? And the
"russky stuff" read by the blue collar workers, is that imported or is it
locally produced?

In Estonia, which has a larger Russian-speaking population percentage-wise
than Lithuania does, there are locally produced Russian-language
newspapers and magazines, as well as local Russian-language radio and
television broadcasts. There is a lot of stuff in English on the Estonian
television as well, but most of that is American, British, and Australian
mass-entertainment stuff, broadcast in English and subtitled in Estonian.
The locally produced Russian material that I have seen on Estonian
television is telejournalism, news, news analysis, children's shows, and
Soviet and Russian films, with Estonian subtitles.

Regards,
Eugene Holman
.

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