Re: Wilno and Vilnius Re: "Russia, Again Evading History"

On Jun 30, 8:45 pm, EZ <zvi...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 29, 7:15 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."

<ostap_bender_1...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
However, as I understand, it is highly debatable whether the Grand
Duchy of Lithuania and its capital Vilnius were Lithuanian or Polish.
In fact, the Wiki's list of official languages in the Grand Duchy of
Lithuania is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania

Language(s):
Polish
Latin
Ruthenian
German

Great link to wikipedia. Please, refer to the following paragraph -
perhaps you missed it:

+++++++++++
"Demographics and languages

The nucleus of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was the land of Lithuania,
the ethnic land of Lithuanians. [...] .An estimate of the
population in the territory of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania
together gives a population at 7.5 million for 1493, breaking them
down by ethnicity at 3.25 million Poles, 3.75 million Ruthenians and
0.5 million Lithuanians.[45]


0.5 million Lithuanians - that's what? 15%?


With the Union of Lublin, 1569,
Lithuanian Grand Duchy lost large part of lands to the Polish Crown
(see demographics of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).


Ok. Let's see that:

"In 1618, after the Truce of Deulino the Commonwealth population
increased together with its territory, reaching 11,5 millions that
could be roughly divided into: Poles - 4.5m, Ukrainians - 3.5m,
Belarusians - 1.5m, Lithuanians - 0.75m, Prussians - 0.75m, Jews -
0.5m, Livionians - 0.5m"

0.75 million Lithuanians - that's what? Less than 7%?

Languages of the Commonwealth

[Officially recognised:]

Polish (officially recognized;[63] dominant language, used by most of
Commonwealth nobility[63][64][65][66] and by peasantry in the Crown
province;[67] official language in Crown chancellery and since 1697 in
Grand Duchy chancellery)[68] Dominant language in the towns.[67]

Latin (off. recog.;[63][69] commonly used in foreign relations[68] and
popular as second language among the nobility[70])

Ruthenian (also known as Chancery Slavonic;[68] off. recog.;[63]
official language in Grand Duchy chancellery until 1697 (when replaced
by Polish); used in some foreign relations[68][69][71] its dialects
were widely used in Grand Duchy and eastern parts of the Crown as
spoken language)
German (off. recog.;[63] used in some foreign relations,[68] in Royal
Prussia and by minorities in cities,[67][77])

Hebrew (off. recog.;[63] used by the Jews; Yiddish was also used[67]
but not recognized as official language[78][79])

Armenian (off. recog.[63] used by Armenian minority[79][80])

*********Not officially recognised:

Lithuanian (not off. recog.[63][72] but used in some official
documents in Grand Duchy[73][74][75] and, mostly, used as a spoken
language in the northwest part of Grand Duchy (in Lithuania Proper)
and the northern part of Royal Prussia (see Lithuania Minor).[76]

So, even German, Hebrew and Armenian were official languages but
Lithuanian wasn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_history_of_the_region_of_Vilnius

Censuses

Russian census of 1897

City of Vilna

Jews (40.0%)
Poles (30.1%)
Russians (20.9%)
Belarusians (4.3%)
Lithuanians (2.1%)

Vilna Governorate

Belarusians (56.1%)
Lithuanians (17.6%)
Jews (12.7%)
Poles (8.2%)
Russians (4.9%)

1916 German census

City of Wilna

Poles (50.2%) [probably includes Belorusans]
Jews (43.5%)
Lithuanians (2.6%)


Frankly I find this discussion boring. Is Vilnius in Lithuania now?
Yes. Was there Polish influence? Yes. Was there Lithuanian influence?
Yes. Was there Belarussian influence? Yes. Why was Vilnius given to
Poland in 1920 and did the government of Poland violate any treaties
at that time?


Because Poles made up the majority of the population?


Why was Vilnius given to Lithuania in 1940?


Because Stalin said so?

And, BTW, it was given in 1939 not in 1940.


Who was in
charge in Lithuania at that time?


Antanas Smetona, of course. You didn’t know? This authoritarian ruler
was in charge of Lithuania from April 4, 1919 to June 19, 1920 and
from December 19, 1926 to June 15, 1940, thanks to a coup d'état of
1926.


Was it fair to all parties concerned - in both cases 1920 and 1940?

Your answer and opinion can be tweaked depending on which side you
take and then adjusting the time period and selecting facts.


Yes, that’s the dominant modus operandi not only of SCB and Usenet but
of the mass media too.


I think Stalin gave Vilnius to Lithuania to weaken Poland


No. You can argue that Stalin occupied Vilnius in order to weaken
Poland. However, he could have (and Belorusans argue that he should
have) kept it to himself and given it to the Belorusan SSR, especially
because in 1916 Belorusans made up the majority of the Vilna
Governorate (see above). Tell me, why do you think Stalin, instead of
keeping Vilnius inside USSR, gave it to Lithuania? A sudden bout of
generosity? :-)


- should it go back to Poland now? But then how about
Danzig, Breslau etc? Should they go to Germany - following the same
logic? How about Karelia or Kuril islands or Kaliningrad oblast? How
about Lviv? What is your take on this Karla?


No to everything, except maybe Russia should voluntarily give Finland
the land taken in the 1940 aggression, provided the Russians living
there now would get full linguistic and other types of autonomies.


Frankly I find this discussion boring. Is Vilnius in Lithuania now?


It seems what you are saying is that non-stop dwelling on 70-year-old
history is boring, and that modern politics and events are more
interesting and relevant. Right? Then how come there is a non-stop
stream of posts here concerning the Soviet occupation of the Baltics
in 70 years ago? The term “Molotov-Ribbentrop” seems to be the most
frequently used term here at SCB.


you can slowly and
carefully start using your real name. Nobody will laugh at you. And -
believe me - you might find that liberating.


If I could, I would right now. Unfortunately, there are too many
vicious despicable snakes around here who love to shut up their
discussion opponents by getting them fired from their jobs and
threatening their safety:

///////////////////////

martin wrote:

IP addresses don't lie, "anzaurres-Michael", there is no such thing as
'anonymous' in this post 9/11 world. The Federal authorities have put
in place mechanisms to track people like you. We know how to find out
who you are.


//////////////////////////////////////

On Jun 6 2005, 10:28 am, darsiau...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

hehe... Is that the best you can do oh math genius from the Bay Area ?
The one stupid enough to post from a machine with a static IP address ?
I wonder if the institution you post from knows that youre writing all
this bigotted garbage. I wonder....

Vidas


//////////////////////////////////////


That’s why it is against the Netiquette to harp on other people’s use
pseudonyms:

////////////////////////////////////////////////

http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/fyi/fyi28.html
http://www.tgos.org/newbie/rules.html

Netiquette Guidelines

- If a user is using a nickname, alias or pseudonym, respect that
user's desire for anonymity.

////////////////////////////////////////////////


Once that happens - I
promise - I might take a look at your posts.


You are not looking at my posts now? And are you replying to my
current post here without having looked at it? Wow. You must be
clairvoyant. :-)

I didn’t know that you were not looking at my posts. Nor would I care
much if I did, given your unfamiliarity with the Netiquette
Guidelines.
.

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