Re: Muslim woman receives $4,000 in damages for having to remove face veil

Jaakko Raipala kirjoitti:
Anton <anton.usenet@xxxxxxxxx> kirjoitti:

Jaakko Raipala kirjoitti:
Why not generalize? It's the law of the land in those countries and it's
not like most males even hide their attitude that it's the right thing to
do if you ask them.
[...]
I have a better idea. What's wrong with these countries is that they're
barbarically patriarchic. It's that simple. So, why do we consider males
from these countries "refugees"? It's like a Nazi would've claimed asylum
I have my suspicions, but still in my logic you are innocent until proven guilty.

Don't worry. I suspect that whatever crime you're planning of accusing
me of is one that I'm happy to admit to, so I will pre-emptively confess.

So you admit guilt to domestic violence? Why shouldn't you: thousands of people from your own culture has committed these crimes.

If we were to take a harsh "pre-emptive" approach to domestic violence, we would have to expel Finnish males as well.

Who said anything about "pre-emptive expulsions"? I'm saying that we
should review just who we consider worthy of an asylum.

I'm only applying your own criteria for what (in your own opinion) determines ones right for residence.

I'm not speaking
of expelling populations; I'm speaking of building a safe haven for a
persecuted group.

There won't be no "safe haven" for the thousands of victims of domestic violence committed by the native population.

The point is that there's no point giving asylum to
persecuted people if you also allow in their persecutors.

Thousands of all-Finnish households also hold the persecuted and the persecutor(s) under the same roof. Since you are such a noble knight to the rescue of the persecuted how do you plan to keep these people safe?

It is hard to be cheerful on a subject like this, but the way you are approaching this issue has developed quite comic characteristics. You generalize fgm as typical brutal act of muslim men, yet it is a known fact fgm is practiced by many that are not muslim and not even male (yes: in some areas in Africa elderly *women* are the main advocates of this tradition).

How dare you compare the situation in Finland to what these women have
to go through?

Are you saying Finnish women and children should be "happy" they "only" get black eyes, broken bones, concussions and such from their Finnish christian/atheist spouses and fathers?

The only thing shameless here is your belittling of the suffering that thousands of Finns have gone through.

I for one am against *all* acts of violence. No matter what religion or nationality the perpetrators.

I was trying to challenge your own prejudice and although it looks it was a long shot, try to tempt you to get to ponder the 'big questions' of violence, why and how it happens, what can be done to reduce it... it resulted in the usual clichéd, bigoted rants, which rarely if ever result in any constructive ideas.

By now, everyone must know how bad it is around the
world. There is no excuse for not taking the issue seriously.

Who has said it _shouldn't_ be taken seriously? I'm taking it seriously. what could be most damaging however is two extremes: playing it down, not taking the issue seriously. The other is the shameless, hypocritical way of using it as a political or ideological tool where the ultimate goal is demonizing a group of people, not helping the victimized group.

To
trivialize the absolute lack of rights of women in much of the world
(including some immigrant communities) in such a way is such nasty ultra-chauvinist apologism that I can barely restrain myself from
throwing some very, very unfavourable names at you.

As stated earlier, using this issue as an ideological tool not only serves little to actually achieve any positive outcome for the victims, but it will only backfire on its proponent when the eagerness to label a large group is exceeded by the lack of knowledge on the subject - as it became evident in your case.

The campaign became exposed for what it ultimately is: hate against a group. Most people who genuinely want to help don't want to be a tool in some discriminatory agenda, and it is no wonder most civilized people don't want any part of such "crusade".

Bring back colonialism. Bring back the crusades. Bring back any time
in history when we had no doubt whatsoever about Western superiority
to these so-called cultures. It is disgusting. We shut up and demonize
anyone who wants to do something about it.

Perhaps you could try to re-assess your methods then? Passing judgement on a large group of people understandably isn't the most constructive way of influence their thinking.

Worthless ideologues keep
conjuring up ridiculous moral equivalences ("some men in Finland beat
their wives, too, so we're not very different from cultures where 95 %
of women have had genitals cut") to avoid even confronting the issue.

If you would genuinely be interested in helping those victimized for violence - which I doubt - you could find a more constructive way to combat it than accusing a whole group of people of automatically being a mutilator etc only because of religion, nationality etc.

Not only do we do nothing about such practices in the 3rd world,

Ok - what can be done what isn't being done now? Send NATO troops? Missionaries? Kick countries out of UN and other organizations?

we
actively support them in the migrant communities and we even enforce
silence when the issue touches Finns.

Violence should be dealt with harshly. There is however a canyon of difference between condemning the act itself (my point of view) and a witch hunt against a whole group of people - which hold of course both innocent and guilty individuals.

You are right on one thing though: we need to "put the cat on the table" on violence of cultural origin. There are a number of measures I can think of that would deal with the problem. If we suspect that fgm is a problem we could make it part of our health care check-up routines to have the 'risk group' checked up for signs of fgm. We have laws in this country against physical assault, child neglect etc. If there is sign of of fgm on a girl/woman it should be prosecuted whenever possible. If that fails parents would be asked where were they when their girl was cut. If they have no explanation they could be charged for child neglect.

We _are_ in need of sending a strong message against acts like these. However pointing fingers, throwing stones, name calling and generalization only distance "them" from "us", and then we have no means of influencing them at all.

we pay the trips and demonize anyone who tries to speak of the
issue. ***, Western leftists have even persecuted feminists from these
groups since they tend to support such "racist" ideas as enforcement of
women's rights even when it contradicts someone's "culture".

I'm strictly against fgm/fgc. However you idea of keeping these people as far away as possible from us seems strange from the standpoint from trying to influence their thinking on these matters. Perhaps you weren't that genuinely interested in helping those women as you were quick to find who to blame instead.

--
Anton
.

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