Re: Language dynamics


"Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins)" <cedrins@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1190214900.078994.299290@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 19 Sept., 15:50, "santak...@xxxxxxxxx" <santak...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 19, 7:46 am, "Pçteris Cedriòð (Peteris Cedrins)"

<cedr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 18 Sept., 06:07, "santak...@xxxxxxxxx" <santak...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, they are turning their backs on Latvia's official national
language, and no good will come of that.

I agree. Not only is it bad for social cohesion -- it doesn't do much
good for the town, either. It's getting more difficult for a
monolingual businessman to deal with the rest of the country, for
example. Students without Latvian skills have a dim future. Lettophone
tourists are often turned off by Latgallia. Politicians with poor
Latvian skills sulk through council meetings. Even monolingual artists
and the like, often dependent upon grants and such, are handicapped.

That much I agree with.

We should break out the bubbly!

If everybody around you is a Russophone, chances are that you
or your children will turn into one, unless other factors are
heavily
in play (hatred of occupiers, daddy's belt, primal patriotism,
etc.).

Can you ever say 'patriotism' without putting a sneering adjective
with it?

Rarely. Forgive me for petting your patriotic fur the wrong way, but I
think that's because I live here and you don't. The most common use of
patriotism in the Baltics is as a scoundrel's refuge.

I once brought up your average Russkie teen roller-blader in Dvinsk as
an example of somebody I just can't muster Gintautas-style judgement
for; she just doesn't see much point to learning Latvian.

Judgement shmudgement. I say it would be useful to her - for her own
life - to learn Latvian. Just like every one in every normal country
expects everyone in the country to be competent in the official
language.

But I'm not sure what a normal country is, nor do I know how an
abnormal country arrives at this vaunted normality. I don't think any
of the Baltic states are normal -- not even Estonia. I think Latvia is
especially abnormal. Is East Timor normal? Switzerland? Belgium?
Canada? Catalonia?

I had a really horrid vision of the above phrases just now -- it was
of a typical Russian imperialist asking for the right of Russia to
engage in the same kind of nation-building the US or Canada (yes
_or_!) engaged in long ago. I'm afraid that the time has passed, as
much for the construction of small linguistic nationalisms as for the
great empires.

The antiquated norms of national romanticism have little traction in
contemporary Europe.

Oh, really. And Russia isn't guilty of 'national romanticism'? You
have been indoctrinated, I'm afraid. Using such terminology is not
much different from bandying around the 'bourgeois nationalist' and
'separatist' epithets of a couple of decades ago.

They're very different things. Russia is guilty of imperialism, the
same outworn imperialism our archaic nationalisms struggled against. I
hope not to see these fish in the same kettle unless some Cajun make a
good gumbo.

Personally, I adore Lettish national romanticism -- I find the 19th C
and early 20th C guys (and gals!) to be the most fascinating figures
in Latvian history. They're as removed from the current crop of pseudo-
patriots as eurocrats are from the ancient Greeks, though.

I use rancid terminology in all sorts of ways. I nonetheless think
that one needs to look carefully at what is really going on -- chamber
theater is not a substitute for nationhood, for example.

That's part of the reason this group sees so little participation from
the Baltics. To most, our arguments are the ravings of exiles and their
progeny, whose world-view
has little to do with reality.

Funny how you save your chidings for your fellow Balts, not the
Russian intruders spewing "why hasn't Russia been allowed to wreck
NATO?" questions, etc.

But I've explained why, time and again -- since I'm a Balt, I'm more
responsible to/for the Baltics. This is much more important to me than
what E Pluribusovich Unum in darkest Deutschland or Makarenko in
Levittown or wherever thinks -- of course I'll save my prickliest
chidings for my fellow Balts!

In a few places, your average deluded Balt remarks that we ought to
learn from the Jew by uniting in the face of adversity -- I would
argue that the reason Jews are so strong is that they don't play get-
out-of-here so badly and are experts at heresy and dissent. There are
fanatics galore, sometimes banished, but internal debate is remarkably
free. That freedom is a source of strength.

I _do_ talk to "Russian intruders," but how many times can one till
the same soil fruitlessly? I even talk to British unionists in
Northern Ireland --

http://threethousandversts.blogspot.com/2007/09/latvia-uneasy-democracy.html

I also work for a living, and spent a year working as a speech-writer
to VVF. A job I enjoyed -- I think she was a great President. I now
have nice little framed certificates thanking me for my selfless
devotion and ceaseless labors. Yet you and Hui and Henricus
Coloradoensis will continue to make idiotic comments questioning my
patriotism -- waaaaal, the trouble is that it's of no account. I don't
_need_ to prove my patriotism because it's not in question and never
has been. You can wander about the whole wide world stoking
Russophobia or indulging in the weirdest forms of Francophilia, but I
repatriated in 1991 and know quite a bit more about reality in the
Baltics than you do.

I have friends whose views are diametrically opposed to mine. Note
that mine are actually almost incredibly conservative --I fully
support the citizenship and language laws. I always have, and any
perusal of what I've written over the last decade in this group would
show you that.

Funny how your chidings of me don't take that into account, eh,
Gintai? When was the last time you told Henry to shut his trap? You've
focused your venom upon Vidas, who is a friend of mine -- excuse me,
but isn't he a fellow Balt? I don't know Vidas very well, but I do
know that he has done more for Lithuania than you ever have. He's not
a hypocrite.

The US as a nation-state is an example of the opposite of what you are
saying in terms of laws and structures, btw -- it was founded without
an official language, intentionally so, and only introduced an
official language, and an extremely limited one, a year ago.

Sorry, that's nonsense. The USA is the most monolingual country in
the world when you discount ethnics (as it is methodologically correct
to do), and every bit as linguicidal in regard to other languages as
France or Germany. How much French is still used in Nouvelle
Orléans? (Forget the Cajun sham: it's pure Hollywood. Plenty of
Québécois have tried to find someone to speak French with there - even
in rural areas off the beaten track - and it's impossible.)

I've lived in New Orleans. Pure Hollywood it was not, I assure you.
Yah-yah, French is pretty darn dead. But I am talking about
structures. French remains enshrined in the Louisiana Constitution,
for example. I'm no fan of American monolingualism, but the fact is
that it's mostly based upon the prestige of English and not upon law,
legal gymnastics, or coercion (not that there wasn't often coercion,
esp. among the Cajuns). France was linguicidal _explicitly_, and
continues along that path.

I think it stupid to compare Sweden to Lithuania or Latvia, sorry.

I think that's the crux of your problem. I resolutely insist on
applying Scandinavian and other Western European yardsticks as the
norm for the Baltics. Why can't we aim for those standards? Because
the Russians don't like it? If everyon thought like that in March
1990 Lithuania would never have declared independence from the USSR.
Lithuanian foreign or domestic policy hasn't had to be given the nihil
obstat and imprimatur from Moskau since 1990. Why go backwards
voluntarily?

I love yardsticks as much as you do, but I don't think one should
stick them down people's throats. Seeking comparisons to Latvia, I
find them hard to find -- and they're usually hopelessly inaccurate.
Gimme a loonie for every Russian who says Latvia ought to be as
bilingual as Canada. Explain that only New Brunswick is actually
bilingual at a provincial level, in terms of an official language, and
get a grimace. Oh then Belgium. Note that Belgium is more strictly
regulated linguistically than Latvia is, along geographical lines,
with only Brussels swimming in the middle, and get a worse grimace.

There is no real yardstick. It isn't about yardsticks. The standards
are adopted like any other standards are -- avoid crooked cucumbers
and tiny tomatoes. Let's go back to France, as linguicidal as can be
-- France refuses to recognize minorities, even indigenous ones. With
blind faith in ideals that proved bankrupt long ago, France forges
ahead. French diplomats chide Latvia with regards to the Framework
Convention, and make funny faces if someone asks how they dare to do
so, considering that they don't and sign the damn thing. Mumblings
about the Rights of Man is the French response.

Instead of yardsticks, try linguistic, ethnic, and political reality
-- but you anyway have no problem with that, because Lithuania is
practically homogeneous, due to some rather nasty history. It's no
skin off your teeth to give everybody citizenship, Gintai. I wouldn't
apply your yardstick to Latvia.

Law is a sphere I don't think either of us would like to fumble with
in this context. But I also don't think that law is what this about.

You forget about literature in translation. Since 1991 there is
almost no major work/author from any language/culture that hasn't been
translated into Lithuanian. Don't forget that not every great book in
the worlds was written in English or Russians. Those guys read a hell
of a lot of stuff that has been translated too (if they are serious
readers).
You must have a really short list of "major" works/authors.

How many books does the average person read?

Hardly the issue. An average person who gets interested in x will find
thousands of books about x in English, hundreds in Russian, and one or
none in Lithuanian or Latvian.

How many books were translated into English last year, and how many into
Lithuanian? Russian?

That's irrelevant. There are some monolingual Swedes, etc and there
will continue to be some monolingual Balts. I don't apply PC-type
judgementalism toward them. I haven't done the research, but I'm sure
more books are translated into Lithuanian than Latvian. I see the on-
line catalogues and the list is staggering. Over the past 17 years
the amount of Western European literature translated into Lithuanian
is incredible. Specialists will continue to rely on other language
texts (almost entirely English these days) as they have for centuries.

I don't doubt that the list is staggering, and I don't doubt that more
is translated into Latvian than is translated into Lithuanian. Will
you start unzipping your trousers soon? Please reread what I wrote.
Despite incredible translation, the world is a lot smaller.

My point stands, [...] that a monolingual Russian lives in a much richer
world than a monolingual Lithuanian does.

So? But if he happens to be a citizen & resident of Lithuania, his
life is made better by knowing Lithuanian. Otherwise he is limited to
russophone shops, social outings, television - isolated from the
mainstream that surrounds him. As I said, numbers (density,
concentration) are critical. Only in one or two suburbs of Vilnius
(and maybe in Visaginas where the nuclear reactor is) can a russophone
in Lithuania live a Dvinsk-style cosey life.

Did you see the latest education study? Not a single Eastern European
university made it into the top 100. The systems in our countries are
seen as dysfunctional, and indeed they are.

Of course a Lithuanian's life is made better by knowing Lithuanian.
Bravo! The trouble is that a Lithuanian's life is worth very little,
which is why so many Lithuanians are fleeing Lithuania as fast as
their litai can carry them.

In my view, a serious historian uses primary sources. A lack of Russian
skills would subtract at least two centuries from serious study.

Garbage. How many Yankee historians have read de Tocqueville in
French? And should all Yankee historians be disqualified from talking
about ancient Greece and Rome because they don't know the relevant
languages? (How many Russian historians know Greek or Latin? The
older ones don't even know English. But is it OK for Russian
historians to be monolingual? And to read about the Baltic states
only from russky sources in Russian? Works both ways, ya know.)

Um, if you read what I wrote, I did say that it works both (or --in
many) ways. I did not say that it is okay for Russian historians to be
monolingual. I was not suggesting that one read about the Baltic
states only in Russian. I stated quite another thing, in fact. Do you
ever listen to what your interlocutor says, Gintai?

Unlike Lithuanian, Estonian, or Latvian, Russian is a major language.

You can light candles and incense to it if you wish - that's your
choice. I still won't let anyone force me to speak/read/listen to it
when it's not my free choice to do so.

Fine -- and I fully agree with that, so long as you understand what
that means. If I had a child, I'd insist upon him or her learning
Russian. If I lived in Miami, I'd insist upon him or her learning
Spanish. "Free choice" is always a limited thing. There ain't no
colonists here imposing English, but getting a decent job without the
knowledge of English is impossible and not a matter of free choice. If
you open a newspaper in Latvia and study the want ads, I'm afraid
you'll find that one needs Latvian, Russian, and English to get a nice
job.

I could add that English is a "more major" language -- face it. It is
rapidly becoming language no. 2 in the Baltics and most certainly
language no. 1 for international communication. More and more
Lithuanian firms talk to Russian firms in English. And this will
increase. Absurd denials and ostrich behavior are just plain silly.

See above. And back to numbers -- Russian isn't as necessary in
Lithuania as it is here. Naturally, many Russians know English and
many are learning, and many Balts are doing the same. It'll be a very
long while, though, before we and the Russians know English at the
level of the Swedes. Even then, Russian will still be appreciated.
I've yet to meet a Dane who doesn't speak English -- if you think that
means that knowing Danish doesn't give a person an advantage when
dealing with Danes, you're not only crazy but are backing yourself
into a corner according to your own ideas about language politics.

I think everybody living in Latvia ought to learn Latvian, and I think
we've embarked upon a course towards that. The ship leaks and there
are freak storms. I also think that Lettophones ought to learn
Russian, and most Lettophones would agree with me. The official goal
of the EU, and I know how you love the EU, is that all of us know
three languages. Great. Latvian, English, Russian in these parts. You
can do Lithuanian, English, Polish if you wanna.

Geriausio,
/P

Waal - I guess it is that time of the month in Dvinsk - again.

Best - - Henry


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Latvian Language Older Than Lithuanian?
    ... language of the Finno-Ugric-speaking population that inhabited the Baltic ... between Latvian and Ugrian cultures in the archeological record. ... in the Gulf of Bothnia - identifying the limits of Baltic Culture ... Latvian is bad Lithuanian spoken with a heavy Estonian accent. ...
    (soc.culture.baltics)
  • Re: True western view of new Baltic masters
    ... speak is the language of the majority of the whole Confederation (as ... Students without Latvian skills have a dim future. ... in an independent Latvia where Russian ... otherwise it was all in Lithuanian. ...
    (soc.culture.baltics)
  • Re: Language dynamics
    ... language, and no good will come of that. ... Students without Latvian skills have a dim future. ... Russian intruders spewing "why hasn't Russia been allowed to wreck ... Lithuanian foreign or domestic policy hasn't had to be given the nihil ...
    (soc.culture.baltics)
  • =?utf-8?q?Re:_Cel=C5=A1_uz_Daugavpils_sirdi?=
    ... > language status, which I have found much more inspiring than Olga's ... >> Cibe, a Russian colonist, is claiming that Latgalian is not a dialect ... > Russian colonist to support Latgalian "language claim"? ... >> Latgalian should not become a Latvian (which she describes as ...
    (soc.culture.baltics)
  • =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Cel=9A_uz_Daugavpils_sirdi?=
    ... These are mainly about preserving Latgalian identity focusing on ... language status, which I have found much more inspiring than Olga's ... Russian colonist to support Latgalian "language claim"? ... > Latgalian should not become a Latvian (which she describes as ...
    (soc.culture.baltics)