Language dynamics

On Sep 19, 7:46 am, "Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)"
<cedr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 18 Sept., 06:07, "santak...@xxxxxxxxx" <santak...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, they are turning their backs on Latvia's official national
language, and no good will come of that.

I agree. Not only is it bad for social cohesion -- it doesn't do much
good for the town, either. It's getting more difficult for a
monolingual businessman to deal with the rest of the country, for
example. Students without Latvian skills have a dim future. Lettophone
tourists are often turned off by Latgallia. Politicians with poor
Latvian skills sulk through council meetings. Even monolingual artists
and the like, often dependent upon grants and such, are handicapped.

That much I agree with.

If everybody around you is a Russophone, chances are that you
or your children will turn into one, unless other factors are heavily
in play (hatred of occupiers, daddy's belt, primal patriotism, etc.).

Can you ever say 'patriotism' without putting a sneering adjective
with it?

I once brought up your average Russkie teen roller-blader in Dvinsk as
an example of somebody I just can't muster Gintautas-style judgement
for; she just doesn't see much point to learning Latvian.

Judgement shmudgement. I say it would be useful to her – for her own
life – to learn Latvian. Just like every one in every normal country
expects everyone in the country to be competent in the official
language.

The antiquated norms of national romanticism have little traction in contemporary Europe.

Oh, really. And Russia isn't guilty of 'national romanticism'? You
have been indoctrinated, I'm afraid. Using such terminology is not
much different from bandying around the 'bourgeois nationalist' and
'separatist' epithets of a couple of decades ago.

That's part of the reason this group sees so little participation from the Baltics. To most, our arguments are the ravings of exiles and their progeny, whose world-view
has little to do with reality.

Funny how you save your chidings for your fellow Balts, not the
Russian intruders spewing "why hasn't Russia been allowed to wreck
NATO?" questions, etc.

The US as a nation-state is an example of the opposite of what you are
saying in terms of laws and structures, btw -- it was founded without
an official language, intentionally so, and only introduced an
official language, and an extremely limited one, a year ago.

Sorry, that's nonsense. The USA is the most monolingual country in
the world when you discount ethnics (as it is methodologically correct
to do), and every bit as linguicidal in regard to other languages as
France or Germany. How much French is still used in Nouvelle
Orléans? (Forget the Cajun sham: it's pure Hollywood. Plenty of
Québécois have tried to find someone to speak French with there – even
in rural areas off the beaten track – and it's impossible.)

I think it stupid to compare Sweden to Lithuania or Latvia, sorry.

I think that's the crux of your problem. I resolutely insist on
applying Scandinavian and other Western European yardsticks as the
norm for the Baltics. Why can't we aim for those standards? Because
the Russians don't like it? If everyon thought like that in March
1990 Lithuania would never have declared independence from the USSR.
Lithuanian foreign or domestic policy hasn't had to be given the nihil
obstat and imprimatur from Moskau since 1990. Why go backwards
voluntarily?

You forget about literature in translation.  Since 1991 there is
almost no major work/author from any language/culture that hasn't been
translated into Lithuanian.  Don't forget that not every great book in
the worlds was written in English or Russians.  Those guys read a hell
of a lot of stuff that has been translated too (if they are serious
readers).

You must have a really short list of "major" works/authors.

How many books does the average person read?

How many books were translated into English last year, and how many into Lithuanian? Russian?

That's irrelevant. There are some monolingual Swedes, etc and there
will continue to be some monolingual Balts. I don't apply PC-type
judgementalism toward them. I haven't done the research, but I'm sure
more books are translated into Lithuanian than Latvian. I see the on-
line catalogues and the list is staggering. Over the past 17 years
the amount of Western European literature translated into Lithuanian
is incredible. Specialists will continue to rely on other language
texts (almost entirely English these days) as they have for centuries.

My point stands, [...] that a monolingual Russian lives in a much richer world than a monolingual Lithuanian does.

So? But if he happens to be a citizen & resident of Lithuania, his
life is made better by knowing Lithuanian. Otherwise he is limited to
russophone shops, social outings, television – isolated from the
mainstream that surrounds him. As I said, numbers (density,
concentration) are critical. Only in one or two suburbs of Vilnius
(and maybe in Visaginas where the nuclear reactor is) can a russophone
in Lithuania live a Dvinsk-style cosey life.

In my view, a serious historian uses primary sources. A lack of Russian skills would subtract at least two centuries from serious study.

Garbage. How many Yankee historians have read de Tocqueville in
French? And should all Yankee historians be disqualified from talking
about ancient Greece and Rome because they don't know the relevant
languages? (How many Russian historians know Greek or Latin? The
older ones don't even know English. But is it OK for Russian
historians to be monolingual? And to read about the Baltic states
only from russky sources in Russian? Works both ways, ya know.)

Unlike Lithuanian, Estonian, or Latvian, Russian is a major language.

You can light candles and incense to it if you wish – that's your
choice. I still won't let anyone force me to speak/read/listen to it
when it's not my free choice to do so.

I could add that English is a "more major" language -- face it. It is
rapidly becoming language no. 2 in the Baltics and most certainly
language no. 1 for international communication. More and more
Lithuanian firms talk to Russian firms in English. And this will
increase. Absurd denials and ostrich behavior are just plain silly.

.

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