Re: True western view of new Baltic masters

On 17 Sept., 19:19, "santak...@xxxxxxxxx" <santak...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 17, 11:44 am, "Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)"

<cedr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Re the words -- what do you guys use for wolf? Latvian uses all sorts
of euphemisms, like "pel cis" (the gray one), "dieva suns" (God's
dog), and even "vilks" itself...

Curious. I'm not aware of anything similar in Lithuanian. Maybe some
of our Lithuania-residents will correct me if I am wrong.

According to Karulis, even "vilks" itself (which derives from tearing,
pulling, plundering, wounding) used to be a euphemism, and once it was
established the other euphemisms came into being -- there's even
"vecbrālis," "old brother." "God's dogs" was taken by an extreme right-
wing group in the 1930s (Pagan revivalism and extremism were pretty
close at times).

Since wolves are rather rare these days, I think the euphemisms are
falling out of use. We're no longer terrified, unfortunately.

Re what you write above -- even I, with little experience of Québec,
know people there, in situ, who are genuinely concerned about the poor
English skills of their kids. Anglophones in Québec don't live in
"North America" -- they live, like speakers of any language anywhere,
in an immediate linguistic environment that is influenced, sometimes
heavily, by a broader one.

Due to market realities (producting for the biggest audience pays
best) French TV is more limited than English TV. So kids in Québec
watch a lot of anglo TV. The pretence of Canada being bilingual is
quickly stripped away when you watch something like Canadian Idol.
It's 100% percent English only, and if you don't speak English
fluently don't even think about competing because you won't get any
votes outside Québec. And don't even dream of singing in French!

As Dmitry points out, a lot of Eurovision-type stuff is also in
English.

One of the major complaints of Russophones here with regard to the
education reform is a simple one -- their kids will grow up with bad
Latvian, bad Russian, and no real linguistic home ground. This
complaint is not so easily dismissed. Language isn't national. The
lists of the best schools in Latvia include at least a couple of
Daugavpils schools -- Russian ones.

What do you mean "language isn't national" ?

I mean to emphasize the local. See above and below.

Most Europeans focus upon the individual, not upon the imaginary,
legendary, or even imaginal nation-state. Tant pis.

You've lost me there too. And what's your aunt's piss got to do with
it? :-)

I was taken aback the first time I met people from Québec who spoke no
English -- hey, it's North America? No problem, but weird and rather
debilitating. I was taken aback the first time I met Lithuanians (in
Lithuania) who spoke no Russian... when English didn't help, I was
taken aback yet again.

As you know, I'm all in favour of everybody trying to learn as many
languages as they can. What I am against is the assumption that
tere's nothing to be ashamed of about being monolingual in English
(like 99% of non-ethnic Americans, etc) but there is something to be
ashamed about if you are monolingual in your own native language with
only a million or two or three million speakers. Sure, sure, the
monolinguals miss out. But what the average monolingual anglophone
will never admit is that they are missing out on somtething too. As
far as they are concerned they already have all they will ever need
linguistically and any talk about cultural enrichment falls on deaf
ears. (Because they may have dabbled in it a tiny bit once, only to
find that, like dieting and exercise, it's not easy and - in their
view - not as much fun as sitting on the sofa watching Simpsons while
eating popcorn and drinking beer.)

Those I know who have brilliant Latvian tend to be those who also have brilliant Russian.

Of course. As per paragraph above. But russophones in Latvia have
even less excuse for being monolingual than do anglos in Québec.
Anglos here can point out (and they do ad nauseam) that what they
speak is the language of the majority of the whole Confederation (as
if that is supposed to make it OK to ignore the local language)
whereas Latvia is no longer in any confederation or soyuz that
relegates its langauge to minority status.

That's why I'm emphasizing the local. The local language in Daugavpils
is _not_ Latvian, so they're really not sinning. There's a whole array
of questions and factors here -- Dmitry's reducing it to the simplest:
"It is very much to do with how easy is to get by without learning
another language. For example, in Daugavpils one has to make an effort
- in Kuldīga Latvian comes naturally." That's what matters most, no
doubt. The whole process of language shift is about that, isn't it? I
mean, those stats I gave that show Ukrainians and Belarusians and
Poles getting russified _now_, in an independent Latvia where Russian
is no longer the _lingua franca_, sort of prove that -- the bigger
language wins, even in the home, most of the time.

Even minority status is local. The description of Latvian as "an
orphan in the big city" at a linguists' conference sticks in mind --
Gintai, if everybody around you is a Russophone, chances are that you
or your children will turn into one, unless other factors are heavily
in play (hatred of occupiers, daddy's belt, primal patriotism, etc.).
Not to go over old ground, but many Latvians _like_ speaking Russian.
I can cite heaps of anecdotal evidence; a few of my friends switched
to Russian because of their reading, in adolescence -- the Russian
world is simply bigger, a lot bigger, and when the rest of the world
was mostly closed to them, that was an avenue of access and escape.
Nowadays that's English. One can get out of one's low-ceilinged life;
it can be downright Oedipal.

There's no comparison with French, because French is a major language.
Though Esths, Letts, and you famously accursed Lithuanians have a
wonderful literature, they do not compare; one cannot possibly
restrict oneself to Latvian literature and claim to be an educated
person, not to mention a person who has a grasp of hydraulics or
poetry. Face it. This does not mean that the language is impoverished.
"Die Grenzen meiner Sprache bedeuten die Grenzen meiner Welt."

This has always been the case -- people used to learn Latin and Greek,
French and German, etc. The problem with Russian was and is not a
problem with the language but a problem with linguistic imperialism,
and English doesn't threaten us nearly as much because native
Anglophones are few and far between... and English is _desired_.

A Russophone here has very little reason to learn Latvian. The culture
is not attractive, and can actually be repellent -- we're not an
especially welcoming people, and having been on a defensive tribal
footing for aeons are unlikely to become so in the near future. The
fact that many Latvians gripe about accents is an indication -- one
gets the feeling that not a few would prefer that Russians _not_ learn
Latvian. It makes it easier to hate them, and this is increasingly the
justification for our existence.

I spent part of this day performing a most absurd task: translating
letters by Latvian historians into English -- letters to Russian
historians. Now, I know perfectly well that these historians are
fluent in Russian -- in fact, they probably wrote their dissertations
in Russian. Can one really be so rude, then, or such an idiot? If this
is to prove a point -- what point does it prove?

It proves a very valid point: if you want to be taken seriously and
treated as equal, insist on your own language. I applaud those Heads
of State who refuse to give interviews in any language other than the
official national language of their country. I'll always despise that
commo bitch Prunskiene (Seimas member) who ran around giving
interviews in Russian just at a time (1990-1) when Lithuania was
trying to convince the West that no we are not Russians and the
Russians have no divne right to rule us.

I think it pathetic posturing, sorry. The gentlemen I was translating
ain't insisting upon their native tongue -- they're insisting upon
using English, having me translate their texts because they do not
know English, and avoiding Russian (which they know very fluently) for
the lowest of political reasons. I can sort of understand writing to
some dude in Lithuania in English because one doesn't want to admit
that Russian is what unites them, but writing to a Russian in Russia
in a language neither knows, simply because one wants to pretend to be
equal, is miserable -- such fakery is actually proof of inequality. If
you know French and write to your colleague in France, who knows no
Lithuanian, you use French, no? That you can't do the same for a
Russian simply because you have complexes -- well, all it proves is
that you are a pitiable dependent upon emotions that lost their
validity long ago. It's wretched, unspeakably so. So there.

In the end, what Balts will prove is that they can bash their heads against a wall better than anybody, and Makarenko and maybe even MTRP will be vindicated. Sad, but true.

Sorry, PC, not sad and not true. I disagree. Besides - you got an
assignment out of it, didn't you? And look wider - if those documents
are to go into the archives to be perused by future students, most of
them students will speak no Russian.

I did indeed. By the way, what are the rates these days down your way?
They fluctuate wildly here, so I've taken to asking top dollar
(blasted imperialism, sorry -- top loonie, top litas, top lats) and am
getting it lately, that being Ls 20 (ca. $40) a page, netto... never
got so much before, but then the economy is overheating like hell,
literally.

If future students of Baltic history lack Russian -- there will be no
serious histories, no?

Geriausio,
/P

http://lettonica.blogspot.com/

.

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