Re: True western view of new Baltic masters

On Sep 17, 9:50 pm, "Pēteris Cedriņš (Peteris Cedrins)"
<cedr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Russophones in Latvia have even less excuse for being monolingual than do anglos in Québec.
Anglos here can point out (and they do ad nauseam) that what they
speak is the language of the majority of the whole Confederation (as
if that is supposed to make it OK to ignore the local language)
whereas Latvia is no longer in any confederation or soyuz that
relegates its langauge to minority status.

That's why I'm emphasizing the local. The local language in Daugavpils
is _not_ Latvian, so they're really not sinning.

Well, they are turning their backs on Latvia's official national
language, and no good will come of that.

Those stats I gave that show Ukrainians and Belarusins and
Poles getting russified _now_, in an independent Latvia where Russian
is no longer the _lingua franca_, sort of prove that -- the bigger
language wins, even in the home, most of the time.

Numbers are critical. What you describe is simply not happening in
Lithuania because the concentrations of russophones are not dense
enough. (No double entendre intended. :-) Not even in Vilnius.
When I am in Vilnius my favourite activity is eavesdropping. I love
travelling on the bus where you can't help hearing what everybody is
discussing. So many times I observed groups of up to 3-4 youngsters
where one or maybe two were of Russian background, but they were all
speaking Lithuanian. In a couple of instances the two Russians
present exchanged the very occasional word in Russian inter se, but
otherwise it was all in Lithuanian. I can't be sure (because I am
judging on faces only) but it seems to me that at least a couple of
times 2-3 kids who were all Russian were speaking Lithuanian inter
se. Maybe to fit in better on the bus? I'm not sure. Oh yeah,
another time one kid who was talking Lithuanian happily with other
kids answered his mobile telphone and spoke to his mum in Russian.

Gintai, if everybody around you is a Russophone, chances are that you
or your children will turn into one, unless other factors are heavily
in play (hatred of occupiers, daddy's belt, primal patriotism, etc.).

You don't have to claim that it's hatred. My insistence on all
Lithuanian citizens knowing and using Lithuanian is not because I hate
Russians. (I don't. Only certain ones who did certain things.) My
insistence on all Lithuanian citizens knowing and using Lithuanian is
no different from a insistence on all Swedish citizens knowing and
using Swedish. And heaven help us, who more fanatical than Yanks for
insisting that all US citizens (even just residents or visitors to
USA!) know and use English ?

Not to go over old ground, but many Latvians _like_ speaking Russian.
I can cite heaps of anecdotal evidence; a few of my friends switched
to Russian because of their reading, in adolescence -- the Russian
world is simply bigger, a lot bigger, and when the rest of the world
was mostly closed to them, that was an avenue of  access and escape.
Nowadays that's English. One can get out of one's low-ceilinged life;
it can be downright Oedipal.
There's no comparison with French, because French is a major language.
Though Esths, Letts, and you famously accursed Lithuanians have a
wonderful literature, they do not compare; one cannot possibly
restrict oneself to Latvian literature and claim to be an educated
person, not to mention a person who has a grasp of hydraulics or
poetry. Face it. This does not mean that the language is impoverished.
"Die Grenzen meiner Sprache bedeuten die Grenzen meiner Welt."

You forget about literature in translation. Since 1991 there is
almost no major work/author from any language/culture that hasn't been
translated into Lithuanian. Don't forget that not every great book in
the worlds was written in English or Russians. Those guys read a hell
of a lot of stuff that has been translated too (if they are serious
readers).

This has always been the case -- people used to learn Latin and Greek,
French and German, etc. The problem with Russian was and is not a
problem with the language but a problem with linguistic imperialism,
and English doesn't threaten us nearly as much because native
Anglophones are few and far between... and English is _desired_.

Sure. One of the things that appeals about living in Lithuania. When
I'm there no one can force me to speak English – or Russian – if I
don't want to. I must admit that when I'm not in the mood for being
interrupted by a Yankee tourist I will just shrug and make 'no
comprendo' gestures when they ask me for directions. I don't feel
awful about that. There are plenty of local youths eager to try out
their English – let the tourists ask them.

A Russophone here has very little reason to learn Latvian.

How about respect for the language and culture of the land that one
lives in?

The culture is not attractive, and can actually be repellent -- we're not an
especially welcoming people, and having been on a defensive tribal
footing for aeons are unlikely to become so in the near future.

Well, freedom of speech ... but crikey, I wouldn't like to hear one of
my fellow Lithos talking like that about my beloved homeland and its
people and culture.

The fact that many Latvians gripe about accents is an indication -- one
gets the feeling that not a few would prefer that Russians _not_ learn
Latvian. It makes it easier to hate them, and this is increasingly the
justification for our existence.

Sadly, not a few Québécois are like that. The inteligencija / élite
will carp about anglo domination, but they are pretty demanding when
people do make an effort to speak French, and if the neophyte is not
as dedicated as I am, they are likely to get discouraged and give up.

If you want to be taken seriously and treated as equal, insist on your own language.  
I applaud those Heads of State who refuse to give interviews in any language other than the
official national language of their country.  

I think it pathetic posturing, sorry.

But it's OK for George Bush and Vlad the Impaler Putin, right?

The gentlemen I was translating ain't insisting upon their native tongue -- they're insisting upon
using English, having me translate their texts because they do not
know English, and avoiding Russian (which they know very fluently) for
the lowest of political reasons.

Why low? Why be subservient and bow to Russian? Why not be on an
equal footing – both using non-native English?

If you know French and write to your colleague in France, who knows no
Lithuanian, you use French, no?

Correct. Because thw French did not try to wipe Lithuania off the
map. They dis not say "Il y aura une Lituanie – mais sans les
Lituaniens." ("Budet Litva, no bez litovcev.") будет Литвa, но без
литовцев

That you can't do the same for a Russian simply because you have complexes -- well, all it proves is
that you are a pitiable dependent upon emotions that lost their
validity long ago. It's wretched, unspeakably so. So there.

Well, luck I am a tolerant, good-natured fellow and I shrug off these
remarks with – eik nachuj. I don't consider it a case of having a
'complex' to be unhappy about invasions, occupations, deportations and
centuries of a policy of ("Budet Litva, no bez litovcev.") будет
Литвa, но без литовцев. And I guarantee you would never tell members
of a certain ethno-religious group which I don't have to spell out to
"stop having complexes about the past". So why say that to us? Or
are we somehow Untermenschen? Our suffering is less valid? We have
no right to talk about it, teach the world, and say "Never again!" ?

If future students of Baltic history lack Russian -- there will be no serious histories, no?

Wrong. Everything in the world worth reading has been / will be
translated into the almighty English. 90% of all articles in all top
academic journals are already in English. Russian is a bit player and
will continue to be so.

.

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