Re: Celš uz Daugavpils sirdi


Dmitry wrote:
> Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
>
> > Dmitry wrote:
> >
> > > Peteris Cedrinš (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> > > > "The Sorbonne of Latgola" is the key to the tone, no? (I laughed hard!)
> > >
> > > I laughed before I sent it too, but certainly not as loud as you, my
> > > vocal chords are not as advanced.
> > >
> >
> > Well, it _is_ down the road from the Latgalian Switzerland...
> >
> > > > I don't really have a comment -- except that this confirms what I said
> > > > a while ago: that Russians and russified Latgalians, but not
> > > > Latgalians, tend to try to oppose Latgalians to Latvians.
> > >
> > > What about Juris Cibuls?
> >
> > I did say "tend"...but I don't know enough about Cibuls' views to
> > evaluate his politics.
>
> These are mainly about preserving Latgalian identity focusing on
> language status, which I have found much more inspiring than Olga's
> "dedication" to the cause.
>
> > I am not talking about there not being a
> > Latgalian identity -- it's a question of how that identity is defined.
> > Cibe, a Russian colonist, is claiming that Latgalian is not a dialect
> > but a language
>
> Why would she claim this? Is it common in Latgola? What moves a
> Russian colonist to support Latgalian "language claim"?

The Rēzekne survey by _Latgales Laiks_ showed that most Latgalians did
not think Latgalian to be a language, but the designation is fairly
common -- in Latgalian, it's "volūda."

What moves some of the Russophones to support the claim is Cibe's
logic, usually, as far as I can tell -- they see the Slavic influences
in Latgalian, and many Latgalians are Russified. There are a few -- a
very few -- Latgalians who actually see Latgalians as closer to
Russians than they are to non-Latgalian Latvians. This was more
pronounced in the early 20th C, which is why you often see the term
"Balts" applied to other Latvians, as though the Latgalians were not.

> >(and her explanation of why she disagrees with linguists
> > on that point contains not a single ounce of substance!) and that a
> > Latgalian should not become a Latvian (which she describes as
> > "assimilation")
>
> :-))) What's wrong with assimilation?

> > -- on the other hand, she claims that the Russian
> > language in no way divides people in Daugavpils. That strikes me as
> > skewed.
>
> I just thought how difficult it could for you. What do you think is
> the proportion of Daugavpils' population who speaks more than very
> basic Latvian?

Probably about one in five are fluent, and I really cannot even guess
how many of the others know more than the basics, or even the basics.
Studies have shown that the proportion of Russians who know Latvian is
lower here than anywhere else in the country. It's a bit better among
the Poles.

> >
> > > > "Latvietim ir
> > > > jâbût latvietim, bet latgalim jâbût latgalim." "Tajâ visâ ir kaut
> > > > kas no slâvu tautâm." And doubtless with the Great Russian language
> > > > as the unifying factor!
> > >
> > > Economy should be the unifying factor. At present Latgale is one of
> > > the poorest, if not the poorest, places in EU.
> >
> > Language has an effect on the economy, too
>
> May be, but very little.

More than you'd think, I suspect. In the modern world there are few
city-states, and language is no longer a local matter. A Rīga company
that opens a branch in Daugavpils needs people who can communicate with
the head office. Even Cibe points to a catastrophic lack of service
personnel -- but this hints at reality, which is that the cashiers have
to speak Latvian and nobody else does.

> > -- as does that "something"
> > from the Slavs. When Tolaram Fibers bit the dust, some workers marched
> > around in Riga bearing red banners with slogans written in Russian,
> > apparently oblivious to the absurdity of their demands in both form and
> > content.
>
> In this case it looks like the economy had an effect on red banners.

I would say that it is more the Soviet mindset, and part of the Soviet
mindset is Russian linguistic chauvinism.

> >
> > See, for instance, Gundega Repše's review of her tour this last
> > summer: "Nezinu, ko doma valsts valodas komisijas, inspektori, valodas
> > iedzivinataji, bet Latgales mazajos miestos un pat uz Daugavpils
> > šosejas - kemigas lielummanijas uzstutetos krodzinos latviski
> > neparunasi. Ne tikai neparunasi - tevi nesapratis."
>
> Strange that it took her by surprise. However, I'm sure she can speak
> and understand Russian well. It must be much more difficult for you.

What surprised her is how little things have changed -- most of the
article was not about language but about what Vello has suggested: that
some of these people are responsible for their own degradation.

> >
> > Tourists and investments don't just arrive from abroad -- the center of
> > the nation is Riga, and attempts to oppose Riga (even to the point of
> > the absurd -- like trying to make friends with Riga-hating Lembergs to
> > get a fish cannery, though I haven't seen the sea around here) are
> > doomed.
>
> -)))))
>
> >
> > A while back a video intended to attract investment to Latvia made no
> > mention of Daugavpils -- as it is, much of Latvia wishes it _could_
> > ignore this part of the country.
>
> I don't think this is very much to do with language. Probably more to
> do with proportion of Riga's population and consequently businesses
> and business opportunities.

But the video promoted the rest of Latvia, not just Rīga. Anita can
tell you how her relatives here reacted to the idea of her visiting
fair Dvinsk... something I've heard before. Not a few people see this
city as a Russo-Soviet backwater, and all the image-building in the
world won't change that unless substantial changes are made.

> >
> > Three days ago ITAR-TASS fumed:
> >
> > "The Latvian State Language Center has made a decision to make
> > Russian-speaking students take a language examination to check if they
> > know Latvian. The decision was prompted by language tests conducted at
> > a transport college in Latgale in the southeast of Latvia predominantly
> > populated by ethnic Russians. The checks showed that the education at
> > the college was conducted in Russian because of poor knowledge of the
> > Latvian language."
> >
> > So where exactly will the great, unifying Russian tongue take them once
> > they graduate?
>
> Ireland???

Indeed -- but in that case the college is not doing its job. And it
almost certainly isn't; I really do not have a problem with people over
a certain age who are resolutely monolingual, but the most unpleasant
experiences are with the young who don't. Students, for instance, who
haven't even the basics. More than once I have heard Russians complain
that their kids are taught in Russian in classes that are supposed to
be in Latvian. That is the problem with poorly thought out reforms that
are mostly on paper.

_Latgales Laiks_ published somebody's complaint about language in the
shops a short time ago, and was deluged with more letters and
e-comments (including by a kid whose teachers at a Latvian language
school do not know Latvian). The few online comments that defended the
situation were from people living in another world -- people who think
our economy is dependent on Russia and expect the Russians to take over
the country in about twenty years, explicitly (this will be a
"guberniya").

> > That college trains railway workers for the most part --
> > the railway has lived in its own, Russian-speaking cocoon, but it won't
> > be that way forever.
> >
> > Similar in every sphere -- how could one possibly expect to make a
> > career without fluent Latvian? Even if one is a committed Dvisnkian,
> > one still has to deal with the rest of the country -- and the rest of
> > the country speaks less and less Russian and is less and less tolerant
> > of monolingual throwbacks. Ziegler might not care if his employees know
> > Latvian or not -- but his employees might one day find that they're
> > condemned to working for low wages in a ghetto. As some of the Latvian
> > managers pointed out in the study of language in the workplace -- lack
> > of Latvian skills is not just a matter of the practical qualification
> > but reflects on the applicant's character.
>
> This is evident in job search sections in newspapers (in cyrilic -:))
> that knowledge of Latvian is one of the most important points.

If the lady is who I think she is, she has no problem with hiring
monolingual persons in her "little business."

Some aspects of the situation were better here a decade ago -- to put
it bluntly, many people took the stick part of the carrot-and-stick
more seriously, and there's less of a stick since the language law was
watered down. There's the question, too, of role models -- Mayor
Eigims' attitude toward Latvian (that it's not really necessary in
Daugavpils) trickled down.

On the other hand, one hears Latvian more often, and there has been
improvement in some areas. Cibe points to the cashiers at the
supermarkets... but regarding Maxima she was wrong; Rimi is fine, but
the Lithuanian-owned hypermarket is one of the worst places in town.

Personally, I get by. I use basic Russian most of the time. I think
Cibe's idea that Russian is unifying is a crock -- some of the primary
effects of having to use Russian are on self-esteem. It is quite true
that most Latvians (including Latgalians) here are quite comfortable in
Russian, but that is because most have been forced to make themselves
comfortable. One doesn't want to ruin one's day by insisting upon
Latvian, but that doesn't mean there isn't resentment. Very few
Russophones switch to Latvian despite my miserable Russian, true even
with those who _can_ hack it. They expect everybody to switch to
Russian, and they do resent Latvian. A cashier at the corner store,
asked whether she ever plans to learn any Latvian, said that it was
"discrimination." The idea that she discriminates against Lettophones
was beyond her.

Vysu lobu,
/P

.

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