Re: Minimum wage increase


Peteris Cedrin? (Peteris Cedrins) wrote:
> vello wrote:
>
> > Again, I agree with your facts but not with conclusions. Latvia have
> > been occupied, there have been plagues and other nasty diseases in
> > medieval times (don't know for Latvia, there was about 150 000 people
> > left in Estonia after plague and Livonian war.We have made it through
> > 5000 years nearby often violent neighbours - and we are still here. And
> > we will be here after next 1000 years, be sure!
>
> That's an article of faith. This is not a time of war or plague, Vello
> -- this is supposedly an aureate period of flowering, the restoration
> of independence (and we're already 14 years into it!). When we first
> became independent, in 1918/20, the country was devastated and quite
> quickly built anew. Many refugees and exiles returned to help build it
> -- they didn't depart in droves in the early 1930s.

Then just some minor improvement is needed. Sorry, I again use Estonia
as model (having in mind everybody what is possible for Estonia is also
possible in Latvia). There is a big story about Latvian-Lithuanian
exodus in Eesti Päevaleht today. No-s they expose are the same you put
here: 50 000 for Latvia, 100 000 for Lithuania, 10 000 for Estonia. By
them Estonia don't suffer so much due for our companies possibility
that workers left abroad was not some new threat: Finland was here all
the time and you may work in Helsinki sleeping at home (we,,. more
popular was5 workdays in Finland and weekend back home). EP also
noticed that challege we lost doctors and teachers wes met by rapid
salary increase for them in Estonia (for young teacher just from
university minimum wage is now 7000 kroons (EUR 466)).
So affordable increase of salaries keep folks home - and what is more
important - clear confidence that tomorrow is better then today.
>
> > I have been in Latvia often, well, "my Latvia" is from Ainaþi via Riga
> > to Bauska. At last in that area I can't see visual decadence.
>
> Via Baltica, which has its own dynamics (as does the coast). If you
> took a slight detour from your route, you would see different things
> (as you would even just off the road in Bauska).
>
> >Yes,
> > situation is shit if to compare with Ireland - but there are a lot of
> > other countries in Europe, with even smaller incomes.
>
> I have a Transylvanian friend who describes almost exactly what I am
> describing in Romania -- exodus and decline (btw Romania has indeed
> adopted something of a "Martin approach," requiring evidence of
> financial means for exit). And Romania isn't even in the EU yet (i.e.,
> they do not yet have the right to work).

And your conclusion - half of europe is not place to live?!?
>
> > More, if back in
> > 1991 medium salary in Estonia was $30 and in Poland $130 then today
> > they were equal. In near future? For yankie Cedrins it may be not so
> > impressive, but remember also US was built up by totally poor folks,
> > with just one valuable property - will to build up better life.
>
> I think that is a bit facile -- the capital that employed the totally
> poor folks was a major factor, of course. Elizabete once made a
> striking remark regarding the frequent comparisons of the oligarchs
> here to the "robber barons" in the States -- "the robber barons _built_
> things -- they didn't just _steal_ things."

OK, OK. But fot today US is relatively successful nation, you agree? My
point was more on income data in compare with rest of Eastern Europe.
For me it is clear show that we are developing much faster and will
have better life quality in very near future. For Old Europe it takes a
bit more time, but there is no ground for pessimism looking development
data.
>
> > I know
> > European welfare states offer a lot what we don't have. But for welfare
> > state you must have money to give to the poor. I'm much more in left
> > today then I was 10 years ago, but logic that "state" or "EU" must fix
> > our lives is totally weird for me. Coz state IS "we". If "we" sit and
> > wait for help from govt, we get nothing, coz govt get no tax money from
> > "us".
>
> Where do you see such logic in what I have written? If "we" are "the
> state," Vello, then the poor are also the state, as are the rich. I am
> not talking about handouts -- I'm talking about policies that influence
> development and a modicum of social justice. Paying policemen,
> teachers, or nurses a living wage has absolutely nothing to do with
> welfare.

Sure, but we have a lack of "rich" folks to "take" from:-). "Living
wage" is something what not stands on the spot - for Latvia it is much
lower then for Ireland but much higher then for Russia or Romania, not
to talk about third world. Something for sure is possible to do - as
rise their salaries 20-25%. But nor Latvia, nor Estonia just can't pay
them irish wages coz we just don't afford them.
There was lot of fears years ago that all Portugal and Greece will
emigrate to richer states years ago - it not happens. Also for
Latvia-Lithuania I think almost all potential emigrants are gone for
today.
>
> Back to that article comparing Ireland and Lithuania: "However, the
> comparison with forced urbanisation in non-democratic states
> emphasises, that deliberate decisions do influence the distribution of
> population, and the regionalisation options which result. ***There is
> no such thing as a neutral regional or development policy.***"
> [Emphasis mine.]
>
> As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as a "free market." The
> laissez-faire philosophy (religion, really) that many here espouse,
> really little more than a knee-jerk reaction to capital "S" Socialism,
> is a sham.

Liberal economy has not driven us to paradise in last 15 years - but it
makes us move much faster then other East european nations. By me it
was inevitable in transition period. Now we are able to follow first
steps towards welfare state - and more in near future.
>
> The proof is in the pudding.
>
> [snip]
>
> Regards,
> /P

.

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