Re: grace at dinner unappetizing
- From: Anna Langley <anna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 18:54:20 -0400
Allan et al,
forgive me if what I say is completely inapplicable, as I am (a) a newbie to
this group, and (b) only lived in Australia and Britain, both of which are
much more secular than the US, and have a slightly different take on
etiquette.
Fortunately for me it has been a long time since I've had grace inflicted on
me. But I've always just smiled and let it happen. I rather think I would
be unlikely to accept an invitation to dine in a household where I thought
that I would have religion pushed down my throat with the food. (And of
course here in the UK, religion is generally a more private affair).
However had I accepted an invitation and grace was said. I would do as I
have done before, and just sit it out. I've always considered that when
invited into someone's home, it's not one's place to criticise how they do
things.
If I had a guest who expressed a wish to say grace, I would politely assure
them that I don't mind them doing it if they wish, but as I'm not religious
I wouldn't join them.
Cheers,
Anna
Allan Adler wrote:
> I've seen books of etiquette on how to behave when invited to events
> that involve some religion you don't happen to believe in. I don't recall
> whether they have advice for atheists, but my impression is that the
> advice is general enough to include atheists.
>
> Most people who invite you to dinner, and say grace, don't ask you whether
> you will mind attending, given that that is the case. That is because the
> presumption is that they have the right to say grace in their own home
> and, if you don't like it, you don't have to accept invitations from them
> in the future. It's not as though they are going to use you for a human
> sacrifice.
>
> How about, when someone invites you to dinner, asking them whether they're
> going to make you listen to grace, which you find unappetizing?
>
> Going to someone's home is not like going to someone's wedding or funeral
> or bar mitzvah, where it is virtually certain that religion will be a part
> of the event.
>
> I don't want to refuse to associate with people who happen to be religious
> or to make sure that I know where everyone I know stands on religious
> questions. As I explained in another thread, I don't like it when people
> need to classify me as belonging to one or another religious point of view
> so that they can know how to treat me. So, I don't want to do it to anyone
> else.
>
> One variation on grace took place in a spirit of ecumenism when I was a
> kid. We were invited to dinner with a religious family from a different
> religion who said grace and who then invited us to say grace in our own
> way. That put us on the spot to say some kind of grace which we normally
> never did, even though my parents were religious. The intentions were
> clearly good and I can't fault our hosts for it. As an adult atheist,
> assuming I manage to sit with good grace through my host saying grace,
> what exactly am I supposed to say if I'm made a similar offer? "I'm an
> atheist and I think religion is an advanced delusional system and I don't
> say grace" or simply "No thanks", and if they insist, "I'm an atheist and
> I don't say grace."
>
> How about this? You invite someone over for dinner and they say grace,
> without asking you if it is ok in your home? If the principle is that
> someone has the right to say grace in their own home, it ought to be that
> someone has the right not to have grace said in their own home. But I
> think most people would instead take the point of view that if someone is
> religious and feels they have to say grace, no matter where or when, one
> has to respect that. So the principle people accept is not really one's
> sovereignty over one's own home. It is that religion trumps all other
> points of view.
>
> What do the etiquette books say? Not to invite them again if they feel
> they can't eat at your place without praying? Again, it is not as though
> they are going to use you for a human sacrifice.
>
> If one isn't going to absolutely banish religious people from one's life,
> how does one make sure one isn't constantly bombarded with religion?
>
> Maybe the criterion is not whether the person is religious or prays in
> your presence. Maybe the criterion is whether they seem to have some kind
> of agenda in doing so, such as trying to convert or save you. If they
> don't make an issue of your beliefs and preferences, don't they deserve
> the same?
>
> Now let's make it a little more complicated: you are an atheist but your
> parents belong to religion A and people of religion B invite you to dinner
> and think it is important to convert people of religion A, for which
> reason they are very interested in how you react to the saying of grace
> and talk a lot about what people of religion A believe. No one actually
> describes you as A or as atheist, so you can never really be sure, but
> let's accept that this is what is going on. Clearly they are not making an
> issue of your atheist beliefs, since they never acknowledged them in the
> first place. What do the etiquette books say?
--
Anna Langley
Cambridge UK
.
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