Re: grace at dinner unappetizing

Allan Adler wrote: 
I've seen books of etiquette on how to behave when invited to events
that involve some religion you don't happen to believe in. I don't recall
whether they have advice for atheists, but my impression is that the advice
is general enough to include atheists.

Most people who invite you to dinner, and say grace, don't ask you whether
you will mind attending, given that that is the case. That is because the
presumption is that they have the right to say grace in their own home and,
if you don't like it, you don't have to accept invitations from them in the
future. It's not as though they are going to use you for a human sacrifice.


Yes, so where's the hang-up?

How about, when someone invites you to dinner, asking them whether they're
going to make you listen to grace, which you find unappetizing?


If you want to look like an anti-social ***, by all means.

Going to someone's home is not like going to someone's wedding or funeral
or bar mitzvah, where it is virtually certain that religion will be a part
of the event.

I don't want to refuse to associate with people who happen to be religious
or to make sure that I know where everyone I know stands on religious
questions. As I explained in another thread, I don't like it when people
need to classify me as belonging to one or another religious point of view
so that they can know how to treat me. So, I don't want to do it to anyone
else.

One variation on grace took place in a spirit of ecumenism when I was a kid.
We were invited to dinner with a religious family from a different religion
who said grace and who then invited us to say grace in our own way. That put
us on the spot to say some kind of grace which we normally never did, even
though my parents were religious. The intentions were clearly good and I
can't fault our hosts for it. As an adult atheist, assuming I manage to sit
with good grace through my host saying grace, what exactly am I supposed to
say if I'm made a similar offer? "I'm an atheist and I think religion is an
advanced delusional system and I don't say grace" or simply "No thanks",
and if they insist, "I'm an atheist and I don't say grace."

The last one, of course. What's wrong with saying "I'm an atheist and I don't say grace."? Would they jump at the opportunity to join you in burning goat bones at midnight if this was your wiccan custom or something?

How about this? You invite someone over for dinner and they say grace, without
asking you if it is ok in your home? If the principle is that someone has the
right to say grace in their own home, it ought to be that someone has the right
not to have grace said in their own home.

That principle is overridden by the gracious host principle. But, by all means, if one wants to appear like an anti-social ***, go with a ban.

But I think most people would instead
take the point of view that if someone is religious and feels they have to
say grace, no matter where or when, one has to respect that. So the principle
people accept is not really one's sovereignty over one's own home. It is that
religion trumps all other points of view.

Not religion, but the fact that you want to feel the guest welcome in your home. Unreasonable demands and restrictions on guests' behavior makes you look like a sociopath.

What do the etiquette books say? Not to invite them again if they feel they
can't eat at your place without praying? Again, it is not as though they are
going to use you for a human sacrifice.

If one isn't going to absolutely banish religious people from one's life,
how does one make sure one isn't constantly bombarded with religion?

There is a fine line between your guests' personal religious habits and proselytizing.

Maybe the criterion is not whether the person is religious or prays in
your presence. Maybe the criterion is whether they seem to have some kind
of agenda in doing so, such as trying to convert or save you. If they don't
make an issue of your beliefs and preferences, don't they deserve the same?

Now let's make it a little more complicated: you are an atheist but your
parents belong to religion A and people of religion B invite you to dinner
and think it is important to convert people of religion A, for which reason
they are very interested in how you react to the saying of grace and talk a lot
about what people of religion A believe. No one actually describes you as A
or as atheist, so you can never really be sure, but let's accept that this is
what is going on. Clearly they are not making an issue of your atheist beliefs,
since they never acknowledged them in the first place. What do the etiquette
books say?

About what? An imaginary subtly uttered possibly illicit attempt to solicit information for an ulterior motive, of which you cannot be certain and which really shouldn't affect you anyway because no one is forcing you to provide the allegedly solicited information to begin with?


--
Come down off the cross
We can use the wood

Tom Waits, Come On Up To The House

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