Re: African democratic countries accoding to Starydog



On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, phil scott wrote:

On Nov 25, 12:31 pm, d...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (DK) wrote:
Below is the list of the African countries Art believes
to be democratic, stable and relatively prosperous
_since their independence_. I could copy and paste
from Wikipedia but it makes for a ridiculously long
post. Go and read about their history - it's all there.

GUINEA
Dictatorial and corrupt regime, pillaging and rapes by military,
on the brink of civil war. GDP per capita in purchasing power
parity (GDPPC(PPP)) is $2,035, life expectancy 56.0.

CAMEROON
For the most time since independence, another oppressive
regime with no sight of democracy whatsoever (single party
up to 1990 and widespread political oppression and torture).
No economic success either; GDP per capita $2,421 ,
life expectancy 50.4.

TANZANIA
First multi-party elections held 1994, a war with
a neighboring Uganda. Other than that fits Art's criteria
of being relatively peaceful. But a far cry from his claims
of democracy from independence for decades. Still, an
economic misery: GDP per capita $723 (178th), life
expectancy 52.5.

MALAWI
Immediately after independence, a single-party state with a
President For Life. First multi-party elections held
29 years after independece. No wars and revolutions
indeed but GDP per capita is $596 (181st) and
life expectancy is 48.3.

ZAMBIA
The now familiar pattern again: one-party state with a
single president up to 1991, corruption and election
rigging since. Like in Malawi, no wars and revolutions
but economy is in shambles. GDP per capita $1,000
and life expectancy is among lowest at 42.4.

GAMBIA
Ruled by the same guy for 32 years, several coup
attempts with violence that included hundreds of dead,
successful coup in 1994 that led the winners to
proclaim a path toward democracy. So much for
"no revolutions and calm". GDP per capita $2002
(144th), life expectancy 59.4.

KENYA
Totally undemocrartic regime after independence, single
party until 1992, coup attempt in 1982. In politically good
since only ~ 1997-2002. GDP per capita $1,445
(156th) and life expectancy 54.1.

BOTSWANA
A stand out. Democratic political system since the
beginning, calm and peaceful indeed. Remarkable
economically - GDP per capita $11,400 (60th).
Ravaged by HIV (> 30% adults infected) resulting
in very low life expectancy, 50.7 years. The closest
to South Africa politically and economically, including
the history of apartheid and formerly large White
population.

SWAZILAND
Constitutional monarchy, completely undemocratic
rule by a king during 1973-1982. Still, not bad by African
standards, which is reflected in GDPPC, $5,245 but
not in life expectancy because the population is basically
dying from AIDS, 39.6 years.

****************
Bottom line: democracy, peace and calm, not to mention
good economic and human development, is clearly a very
rare thing among Black African countries since their
independence in 1950-1960s.

Dear Art, will you have balls to admit that you were talking
rubbish? Seriously, can you? No, seeing just how pathetically
dishonest you are, I don't think you can.

Now lets compare how people in the former South American
military dictatorships fare:

ARGENTINA
GDP per capita $17,062 (47th)
Life expectancy 75.3

CHILE
GDP per capita $12,811 (56th)
Life expectancy 78.6

PARAGUAY
GDP per capita $4,555 (107th)
Life expectancy 71.8

URUGUAY
GDP per capita $10,900 (64th)
Life expectancy 76.4

Hmm, I think it is clear that the evil military dictatorships
in South America did in the end better for their people (or,
at the very least, did not interfere enough with the economic
and human development) than the supposedly (and falsely)
democratic regimes throughout Africa. Democracy per se
is worthless, it's just a tool. Reminds me of the Onion
headline "Dead Iraqi Would Have Loved Freedom and
Democracy".

DK



very good..notice however that these facts you present do not
exclusinvely support your own contention of inferiority/supperiority
as primarily genetically driven. ..yes there are many factors...
including those you mention... inbred characteristics, and values as
drivers.

It has occurred to me, also, that in the book on Africa that I read, very little was said about slavery. What DK said was from wikipedia mentioned a lot of political intrigue and bad stuff of governments that were not uncommon anywhere, but for all that he chose to put here for us, I did not see one sentence or phrase dealing with slavery in contemporary Africa. According to some history that I've read, even in Africa, some blacks did own and use other blacks as slaves (just as in ancient times whites in various places had slaves who were white, as well). However, my recollection is that slavery in Africa was never on the scale that it was in the USA (until our Civil War), Europe until about 1830, and Latin America, also, until 1830 (with some continuation of slavery beyond dates after which it was illegal but that didn't mean it disappeared immediately). So, do we, here, have another criterion totally ignored by DK? What damage could we recognize to have taken place in the enslaved/exploited people and account for that in making any comparison with "today's Africa"? And, that slavery in Latin America was also going on for a couple hundred years, too. And, it wasn't little dinky numbers, either. I have a couple of books that would give numbers if anyone asked me to take the time. Another caveat for DK's attempt to make Latin America look better than contemporary Africa?

however, to select 1 characteristic, racial for instance, and claim it
defines a broader mess, is in error...we can easily see that is not
the case, even among the worlds most productive academics, scientists,
and political leaders going back to the time of the Pharohs for
instance.

I can easily find and cite sources which consider _race_ per se as basically an obsolete term and on clear scientific grounds. From a cultural perspective, it becomes a label that can be put on anyone without scrutiny, recourse, or cross-examination.

currently, in any depressed sector ..for instance the back woods coal
miners in apalachia...entire armies of dim wits, moon shiners and red
necks can be found. its a factual situation. but not racial..
or.... one could say its proof of caucasian inferiority. its not
good science though.

There has been some recent evidence of a genetic connection among computer programmers who also have some measure of autism. There were some reports from the Silicon Valley area where children of parents who were both programmers and having some trace of autistic (spectrum) displayed autistic symptoms at a significantly higher rate than in the population at large. I am not aware whether this observation has been reproduced.

Of course, its not a new observation that inbreeding is not always a good thing; you get expression of lethal recessives. So called "hybrid vigor" usually only comes with halfbreeds, mongrels, mixes, etc., which also suppresses lethal recessives. But, then, there are other genetic mechanisms at play, too. It was explained to me once that hip displasia in German Shepards has appeared because of too much inbreeding and causes problems for the dog when it gets older.



Phil scott

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