Re: The Snot Report ("Democracy for the Few")


OK, this is only going to SRC. And, can you tell me where you are, now?

More below.....

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007, Aleksej Saushev wrote:

Straydog <asd@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

This was going onto two NGs, src and ape. If you are on one of
them, let me know and I will delete the other one. See below for
more.

I didn't intend to post to any "politics/economics" group,
I don't like them since any talk there quickly degrade to some ***.

1. You have to have a sense of humor to survive newsgroups.
2, Most NGs, sooner or later, have "debates" that can degrade.

I didn't intend to post at all, but I couldn't pass such open lie.

I enjoy good, healthy, strong, serious debates.

If you want to continue cross-posting, do as you wish, I don't mind,
but don't ask me for assistance, I'm not eager. Frankly speaking.

OK, thank you anyway. More comments below......

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Aleksej Saushev wrote:

Straydog <asd@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Aleksej Saushev wrote:

Straydog <asd@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

Beyond that, I want to get OFF the discussion of communism (its
a practically dead topic except maybe in connection with some
Latin American countries)

You think so, others don't.

JFYI, there's rather popular view that communism is pushed
rather technical intelligentia than workers themselves.
For instance, take a look at stallmanism, which is good enough
example of bolshevist approach in information industry branch.

Well, I am happy with the idea of free software (and open
source, which does not mean free), and I am happy with the
Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare programs in the USA (and
we could talk about some other things, too), but I also want to
own my house, my car, and my electronic toys.

Which free software are you happy with?

What you brought up below gets very complicated if you get very
serious. Larry Rosen wrote many articles for, I think, Linux
Journal where the GPL can get very complicated if you start
asking "GeekLaw" questions (like Rosen did). The simplest free
software is BSD and they ask nothing except to show copyright by
U Cal Board of Regents. And, so, Appleholics made Darwin, then
Apple tweaked Darwin into OS X and got a nice OS for free.

I've seen "strict copyleft" conditions in the same number of words
as BSDL, you can try to search for "nesos nilsen electronikk" or
something like that. Norwegian style. I must admit it's easier
to understand than that lengthy *GPL stuff.

Well, I did not know BSD had this.

I like all kinds of free downloadable SW, too,. I've played with
Linux (and BSD), and OS/2 (a PoC).

"Free" as in "FSF," free as in freedom, or free as beer?
All three are quite different things, the first one protects
mostly lawyers, the third one protects mostly users, the second
is the most controversial among them. Stallman made contradictive
declarations, which can't coexist peacefully.

I will leave it to philosophers and lawyers to settle. Right now
I am working off legal copies of Windows98, second edition. The
only and first thing that MS made that is stable, functional,
and worth about half of what I paid for my legal copies.

If I had the time, I would expand on BSD or Linux.

If he wants to protect programmers, how it is described in his
story with Emacs, then why he pushes such lengthy and unclear
licenses? Why GPL-licensed code is not reusable by the same
programmers? Why credits are removed in contrast to classic BSDL,
even when it contradicts the law here? (Probably it contradicts
even Berne convention, I'm not sure since I haven't studied it
carefully.) Why does FSF require transition of copyright?

As I said, I will let the commercial world stimulate lawyer
business. I am a home user. I have not heard that there is a big
wave of "KGB-gestapo" raids on homes, just BSA and the other one
(I can't remember) do "KGB-gestapo" raids on businesses (one
kind of crook raiding another kind of crook, eh?).

We have had rather shocking case recently, when state held state
school teacher liable for using non-licensed software and found
him guilty. Even Microsoft said they don't have anything against
poor man. In plain words: our state fights its own employees.
Now I don't know what to expect. I'm trying not to deal with
MS stuff, I use only free software now. Free as in freedom and
in beer, since I cannot afford spending money to feed Bill G.

Bill Gates is a big crook. I have vowed to not buy any more MS if I can help it.

If he wants to protect users, what's the point in huge source,
that user cannot understand?

It's a mystery to me, what is free in stallmanist understanding
of "free." In addition I'm not fluent in Anglo-Saxon law and
crazy U.S. American customs. Just to get everything mixed up,
FSF and allies do not follow Stallman's ideas, they have
independent ones after Raymond, at least. And if I compare
stallmanism to bolshevik stream (controversial comparison,
I admit),

Oh, I know what you mean. Like some Russian thinking (from
Russians I knew) about western software: since the govt owns
everything, and since the people are part of the govt, then
everything owned by the govt is owned by the people and so, its
OK to "pirate" (i.e. make copies) copyrighted SW.

It's odd.

I don't know who told you that, but it's usually justified other way.

I was in Moscow, in 1989, and on a scientific exchange trip. Yes, I was told this, approximately, by Russians who were serious guys. Trading software, for example, was normal. No legal questions asked, no legal answers given.

We have more material feeling: if I take a car from you, you don't
possess that car (can't drive it), if I copy your car, you still
possess your car, you lose nothing. Now substitute car for software,
nothing changes, except copy is done much easier. Change roles
and it becomes more obvious: I can give you my car, if I'm not going
to drive it today, I lose nothing, if I give you a copy of my car,
I lose even less, provided that copy costs practically nothing
(you can bring me your tools, materials, and beer to distract me).
Now why do you want to go to shop and by that damn car, if it's
so easy to get it from me? Or why shouldn't I give you copy of
my car, if it costs me nothing?

Oh, I have no problem with what you said, but manufacturers (particularly the ones who are very big and stinking rich already) are greedy for as much as they can extort.

You say you want to own house. Owning such unmovable thing means
you are tighted to one place, you can't move from. House is very
easy to lose, it can be burnt to ashes, and you get problems with
housing and with insurance to cover money you spent on getting
it in posession. You have more problems when you decide to move,
when you own house. Life goes on, you know, and your nice place
may become much worse, your house's market price drops to
inadequate level, what are you going to do? Working harder
to compensate it? Unless you know how to operate houses it's no
use to own one, since you fall in hands of various service
companies (you fall anyway, but that's another question).
The only point in owning house is in its more stable value,
compared to value of green pieces of paper.

Oh, that's OK. I own my house. I am happy with the arrangement.
You forgot I have to pay taxes because I really don't own the
house, the state owns the house. If I don't pay the taxes, the
state will take away the house.

You pay taxes any way, you may call it (part) rent, or tax, it's
only the name. If you don't pay for power, they'll come and cut
it off, you lose in dwelling's price, if you don't pay tax,
they'll come and arrest your property house included.
All the same, only names changed.

Still cheaper than rent, though. And, I don't have "Stalin-KGB" rules that are in every lease to renters so you can't do anything without permission and sometimes permission would not be granted, anyway.

And don't tell about car and electronic toys, they differ a lot,
if you speak about communism. They are from another category.

Car is the same. If I don't pay license, then I can't drive it.

We don't pay for license, we pay tax and take out liability insurance.

Yes.

Electronic toys are fine until one day after the warranty runs
out.

You can move them easy enough, that makes big difference, when
compared to dwelling house.

True.

and back ON the evils and pathologies
of corporate domination of OUR society and who it benefits (the
rich) and who it hurts (the rest of us).

JFYI, a friend of mine, who used to be liberal democrat in his
political views, once said that he's got tired of all the whimpers
about employers and managers. I don't recall exact words, but he
said something like, "Those half-educated workers from century ago
understood way better, why bolshevik trade union is the only way
to address their problems. What a contrast with all these bachelors
and masters." AFAIR, not long after that he read "Manifesto of
the Communist Party" and started "Capital."

Oh, even better than Marx, you should read Strachey ("The Coming
Struggle for Power") if you want a militant communist.

Thanks for suggestion, maybe I'll try it when I end up with my
current reading (which is far from politics).

I love to read books about politics. I love to hate those guys.
They all lie.

I studied some works of Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, when it came to some
alogical arguments, which neglected historical conditions of the time,
after that I don't talk without factual evidences and I avoid talking
to those without them too. It's a matter of verification, I don't
want losing time on stubborn heads with no support behind them.

Sometimes you are wise. Othertimes, you participate in self-entertainment (but, remember you need a sense of humor [and you have to have some time on your hands]).

I am suspicious of luck. E.g. and I don't believe that RSDRP(b) was
so lucky that they made Revolution in half a year (April--October)
and won Civil War. In addition I had luck to talk to my grandmother
who was born in 1902 and died at age of 94. Checking her memories was
interesting.

This is where I enjoy reading books. History, some economics, some biographys.

Still, I read this book: "Confessions of a Union Buster" by
Martin Jay Levitt about ten years ago and it was a big jump in
learning about the evils of management/owners/executives. Class
warfare does exist. And, for employees there is only one chance:
unions. Sometimes unions are also corrupt (as bad as
management/executives), but its the only _chance_ to get a
better piece of the pie. Management/executives, of course,
_always_ control the knife that cuts the pie.

Actually, I don't believe that anyone is going to unite, because
soviets had fallen and everyone was convinced that they had
fallen because communist ideas are seriously flawed, and it was
communist idea that had led to fall. History does not teach,
you know pretty well, I think. And almost noone knows when did
soviets fall, since it had happened long before now active
people were born.

Oh, I have the idea that our CIA sent secret messages to the
heads of all the republic, planting the seed: "How about you
declare sovereignty" and "Moscow doesn't have enough troops to
send to all republics, so you might get away with it" and it
happened. Reverse dominoes.

Yeah, now we have problems with immigration from those republics,
they go to Russia from almost all of them and they do not exhibit
any sign of willingness to return back. And I admit, they are
right, noone in his right mind stay there, if one can move off.

I heard the same stories. Of course, we have Mexicans coming into the USA at one million per year. 2/3 are illegal.

In addition we have two (or even three) territories occupied by
citizens of Russia or Soviet Union (still), since noone is going
to admit their existence as sovereign countries and significant
part of their inhabitants prefer Russian citizenship.

I heard some stories, too, that some Russians in, for example, Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania, became repressed and discriminated against by those govts as "payback" for Russian domination. Also, I heard some stories about how satellite countries were very jealous (understandable) about Moscow (as if Moscow was the Roman Empire). So, what do you know about this?

So, anyway, I read this book: "Democracy for the few" and except
for a few areas that can be questioned, it is a easy, good read,
and what is most important is that it has a big reference list
at the end of every chapter so anyone can research himself where
the statement comes from and decide how much is truth.

Actually, I don't understand why do U.S. Americans tell about
their democracy when their own greatest writers (and thinkers)
tell (told long ago) that there's no one.

It is actually a very old debate and war between those who want
to keep rich-poor classes but not have it discovered (by the
poor) and those who want to have poor people treated better by
giving them some "vote" in how they are ruled.

What I really don't like in U.S. is flourishing hypocrisy.

I don't like it either.

Is it really so, or am I just paranoid?

Yes, it is really so. You are not paranoid. But, I think most people don't notice it.

The USA is basically a big plutocracy (the country is run by the rich, not the elected politicians).

Do you mean you still have segregational ideas there?

The answer to that is complicated. Several things: in the last 10-20 years, a rightward shift in politics (we have no real left wing in the USA, at least not like Europe or Latin America) and the departments can be told by our president (who is almost a king) to not enforce laws. More segregation is because of economic class differences. So, all poor people live near each other. All rich people live near each other. Guess what?
You guessed right. We also have the Mexican problem; its a mess. There are some studies that indicate black people are doing a little better over the last 10-20-30 years and they have a piece of the economy and there are many black movie actors, etc., and that was not the case a long time ago. Hispanics seem to be doing the worst, but they are also new here. All the history books I've read say the first generation immigrants were always exploited. Beyond that, you have to talk with someone who is a professor or otherwise knowledgeable about our culture in detail.

Also, maybe five minutes after I send this, then I will think about more.

By the way, I enjoyed all of your comments.

Dahsvedahnya








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