Re: Bank of America: Train your replacement or no severance pay



On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Kamal R. Prasad wrote:


Straydog wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, Kamal R. Prasad wrote:


Straydog wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jun 2006, Kamal R. Prasad wrote:


Phil Scott wrote:
--
Phil Scott
Ideas are bullet proof.
"Straydog" <asd@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.63.0606100813320.6907@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Kamal R. Prasad wrote:


Straydog wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Noel wrote:
[snip]

It is traitorous. It is betrayal. And, technically, it is
discriminatory
and there is a law somewhere (DoL) that when this happens
it is unlawful.
This was discussed on the H1-B mailing list years ago and
there might be
something that can be done about it.

The only thing that can be done is to conclude that
employers hire
personnel because they bring value to the table and not
because
employers owe people jobs.

Kamal just wants US people (or anyone who gets their job
taken away from them) to just roll over and die. Employers
get money from people who buy goods and services. Employers
need an employed workforce.

--------
Laws are forming against globalization:

Wall Street Journal, Thurs, March 16, 2006, page A4, has a
sidebar That says "At least 15 bills and amendments are
pending in Congress that threaten new tariffs or tighter
restrictions on Chinese trade. Five of the most noteworthy
seek to: - Impose 27.5% tariff on Chinese imports if China
fails to substantially appreciate the yuan, - Ease rules on
when companies can seek higher duties on Chinese imports, -
Require Treasury to determine if China's currency practices
distort international trade, and - Establish a system to
monitor China's compliance with specific WTO commitments."

By the time the morons in charge get a clue, the damage will
have already been done... we will have armed our competion
with the skills and technology they need to beat us to death
in the world market.... tarrifs while they will end up being

I keep reading that the US is the primordial source of wealth,
technology and all good things in life. Care to tell me how you have
armed the competition with skills?

1. They are allowed to come into our schools and get US education.

Supposing the US doesn't attract the best minds into its top schools
from overseas?

Do you think we don't have enough best minds born in the USA? Oh, I know,
you think if anyone is born in the USA, then they are all mental defects
and cant' do anything without foreigners, right?


You can do -but it looks like you do want foreigners coming in to do
the dirty work for you.

Look, I'll say it one more time: I am against illegals. I am against foreigners coming in and taking jobs away from natives for the purpose of saving money for the CEOs paycheck. Most foreigners love to come here and stay here because they get a far better deal than if they stay in their home country (which has a poor economy). I have no problem with foreigners coming here to get equal pay to natives and become part of life in the USA for the long run. Some developing countries might, 1-2 decades from now, develop a better economy for themselves and then they will have a Western standard of living. If that is good or bad is a subject for a different debate.

What will happen? OTOH -how about you work in the
direction of tackling the problem at its roots i..e work to abolish
student visas?

I really am not against leaving our schools open to anyone.


What?? Are you schizopherenic or plain nuts? Just a few lines above,
you said that Indians are allowed to come to our schools and get US
education -and that is how they are being armed to compete against us
-and now you say you don't have a problem with that? What exactly is
your pt of contention?

The argument that foreigners come and learn how to compete against us is an argument that can't be won. Even if we put up a big fence around the USA, spys of all kinds could come and learn what they need to know. Its been done for years, decades, and centuries. Once you could only get silk from China until they smuggled out silkworms and learned how to make silk elsewhere. Besides, I am old-fashioned; science really should be shared among all people. Even before the USA, a few people (rich people, and explorers) sent their kids to European universities, and even schools elsewhere to learn everything. Even with the Iron Curtain of the USSR, they sent spies here, and we sent spies there.

2. They are allowed to buy into businesses here.
That is legitimate. Lots of businesses are bought by overseas investors
in India too.

I'd love to buy some land in India for cheap.

Another off the track statement.

Not really, you said above "They are allowed to buy into businesses here." I am just expressing my sentiments (as long as land is still cheap in India).

But you were talking of workers here being armed by the US.

Where? I thought India bought its arms from China? No?

3. They are allowed to go back home and compete agaainst us using
technology they learned here.


What if they didn't learn much by being in the US?

Hypothetical question. But, do you think Indians that have lived in the US
for many years learned from someplace else?


Yeah -I learned it from India. Many professionals who relocate to the
US do so because their job takes them there -not because knowledge
(like wealth) originates in the US. Its just a market place/business
centre where people come to trade in their expertise in return for
money and not a place where people relocate to -with a view to
absorbing sensitive technologies or to immerse themselves in american
culture. Ever since the job market tanked in the US, admissions to US
univs have also tanked. Its the job and not access to sensitive
technologies that got them to the US in the first place.

But, what about all the Indians (and Chinese) in our schools? Do you think they are just asleep in the seats?

A researcher usually
comes up with his own ideas instead of being a parasite on others [be
it at the univ or in the industry].

Just like governments are parasites on the people by levying taxes, right?

Or, are you thinking of corporations where the workers do the work, and
the CEO gets the benefit, and the workers come up with the inventions and
the company gets ownership?

Many of those who are crying hoarse
about ideas being stolen are themselves living off other people's ideas
and want to limit the competition.

Oh, are you trying to tell me that jet planes, atomic energy, internet,
computers were invented in India back in 1950s and we stole all that from
you?


No -they were all invented in the US, but not by those who are
complaining against offshoring. They are complaining because they
themselves are parasites of others' inventions and don't have much to
offer to differentiate themselves from the competition.

This makes no sense.

Have you ever seen a hispanic sweating it out in the US -claim that the
job belongs to him?

But, that is exactly what reality is. The job does belong to him. At least until the employer can find someone cheaper. Then the job does'n't belong to him any more.

Likewise for people doing offshored work. They
don't claim the job belongs to them

There are two issues here: one, is any worker happy if he gets laid off? You never talk about this. Two, anyone anywhere who does not have a job and wants one is happy to get one. I don't know anyone, ever, anywhere, who does not talk about "my job" and if anyone asks him if the job is taken away from him would he be happy or more happy about it. Its very rare.

or that it shouldn't be taken away
from them to a cheaper location. But you see americans do that coz they
don't want to sweat it out and don't have any specific skills that
differentiates them from the competition.

Hah! The whole USA was built up by a lot of sweat and work and it still costs a lot to live here.

And, I think you are totally out of touch with the feelings even in India with your Naxalite revolt, Dalit plight, and government brutality. I posted many times the writings of your Arhunda Roy on what she sees in India, and you just ignore it. Here it is again:
------------

India: Government Brutality, Injustice, and
Questionable Democracy.

A sellection of quotes from the book "An Ordinary Person's Guide to Empire" by Arundhati Roy (the author of The God of Small Things, on the NYT best seller list for 49 weeks, and she lives in New
Delhi); ISBN 0896087271, c 2004.

Parts of the book criticise US foreign policy, and other parts criticise Indian foreign and domestic policy. All of the chapters were originally given as speeches or were published as articles in major printed media. The book contains hundreds of sources for details about which statements were made. The book gives substantial detail about the internal political and social components of modern India and India's problems and changes while undergoing modernisation. At one point the author identifies fascist themes in some government policy and especially in connection with globalization. The book is easy to read and contains a great deal of information about the political situation in India, today. If you are a
corporate goon-parasite, then all this doesn't matter. If you care about democracy, ethics, morals, and people, then read on.

Quotes:

page 12
"According to the State, when victims refuse to be victims, they become terrorists and are dealt with as such. They're either killed or arrested under POTA (Prevention of Terrorism Act). In states like Orissa, Bihar, and Jharkhand, which are rich in mineral resources and, therefore, vulneralble to ruthless corporations on the hunt, hundreds of villagers, including minors, have been arrested under POTA and are being held in jail without trial. Some states have special police battalions for 'anti-development' activity. This is quite apart from the other use that POTA is being put to--terrorizing Muslims, particularly in states
like Jammu and Kashmir and Gujarat. The space for genuine nonviolent civil disobediance is atrophying. In the era of corporate globalization, poverty is a crime, and protesting against further impoverishment is terrorism. In teh era of the War on Terror, poverty is being slyly conflated with
terrorism." I have sellected just a few passages to show the message that this book offers and that it is important to everyone, not just India or
Indians.

***
page 13:
"Vast parts of the country are already more or less beyond the control of the Indian state--Kashmir, the North East, large parts of Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, and Jharkhand."
***
"The real issue is that the privatization of essential infrastructure is essentially undemocratic. The real issue is the towering mass of incriminating evidence against big dams. The real issue is the fact that over the last fifty years in India alone big dams have displaced more
than 33 million people.... The real issue is the fact that the Supreme Court of India ordered the construction of the Sardar Sarovar Dam to proceed even though it is aware that it violates the fundamental rights to life and livelihood of the citizens of India."

I should point out that dam construction and other Army Corps of Engineer projects in the USA have been seriously criticised by environmentalists in
the USA at least as far back as 50 years ago. Many dam construction projects in the USA have been declared failures and Jared Diamond, in his book "Collapse" mentioned at least one US dam that was blown up to restore water flows back to their original nature without loss of non-existent
benefits but with the restoration of the fishing industry in the area.

page 45:
"Never mind that forty years ago, the CIA, under President John F. Kennedy, orchestrated a regime change in Baghdad. In 1963, after a succesful coup, the Ba'ath party came to power in Iraq. Using lists provided by the CIA, the new Ba'ath regime systematically eliminated hundreds of doctors, teachers, lawyers, and political figures known to be leftists [reference given]. An entire intellectual community was slaughtered. (The same technique was used to massacre hundreds of
thousands of people in Indonesia and East Timor.[reference given])....In 1980...[the US said] 'We see no fundamental incompatibility of
interests between the United States and Iraq [reference given].'"

page 55: "In South Africa, after three hundred years of brutal domination of the black majority by a white minority through colonialism and apartheid, a
nonracial, multi-party democracy came to power in 1994. It was a phenomenal acheivement. Within two years of coming to power, the African National Congress had genuflected with no caveats to the Market God. Its massive program of structural adjustment, privatization, and liberalization has only increased the hideous disparities between the
rich and the poor. Official unemployment among blacks has increased from forty percent to fifty percent since the end of Apartheid [reference
given]. The corporatization of basic services-- electricity, water, and housing-- has meant that ten million South Africans, almost a quarter of
the population, have been disconnected from water and electricity [reference given]."

Now how does propaganda work?

page 57:
"...Clear Channel Communications is the largest radio station owner in the country. It runs more than twelve hundred channels, which together
account for nine percent fo the market [reference given]. When hundreds of thousands of American citizens took to the streets to protest against
the war on Iraq, Clear Channel orgaized pro-war patriotic "Rallies for America" across the country [reference given]. It used its radio stations to advertise the events and then sent correspondents to cover them as though they were breaking news."

It should be noted that consolidation in the broadcast radio and TV business continues, today. Same for the book publishing business. Soon, only a few entities will control all media.

page 71:

This deals with Hindu nationalism. Many passages in the book talk about this with parallels with the development of Nazi power in Germany in the
1930s.

"On August 15, 2003, Independence Day he [Cheif Minister of Gujarat, Narendra Modi] hoisted the Indian flag before thousands of cheering people. In a gesture of menacing symbolism, he wore the black RSS cap--which proclaims him as a member of the Hindu nationalist guild that has not been shy of admiring Hitler and his methods [reference
given]."

"One hundred and thirty million Muslims--not to mention the other minorities, Dalits, Christians, Sikhs, Adivasis--live in India under the shaddow of Hindu nationalism."

page 85:

Additional text documenting thousands of people killed and hundreds of thousands of people displaced by Indian police.

page 91:

"Gandhi's Salt March was not just political theater. When, in a simple act of defiance, thousands of Indians marched to the sea and made their own salt, they broke the salt tax laws."

page 97:

"The U.S. government used the lies and disinformation generated around the September 11 attacks to invade no just one country, but two.... The Indian government uses the same strategy not with other countries, but against its own people. Over the last decade the number of people who have been killed by the police and security forces runs into the thousands. Recently several Bombay policemen spoke openly to the press about how many 'gangsters' they had eliminated on 'orders' from their senior officers [reference given]. Andhra Pradesh chalks up an average of about two hundred 'extremists' in 'encounter' deaths a year [reference given]. In Kashmir in a situation that almost amounts to war, an estimated eighty
thousand people have been killed since 1989. Thousands have simply 'disappeared' [reference given]. According to the records of the
Association of Parents of Disappeared People (APDP), more than three thousand people were killed in 2003, of which four hundred and sixty-
three were soldiers [reference given]."

The text goes on to say things are getting worse.

page 102:

"Fourty-seven percent of India's children below three suffer from malnutrition, forty-six percent are stunted [reference given]."

page 103:
"Today, an average rural family eats about one hundred killograms [about 220 lbs.] less food in a year than it did in the early 1990s [refernce
given]."

"But in urban India, wherever you go--shops, restaurants, railway stations, airports...--you have TV monitors in which election promises have already come true. India's Shining, Feeling Good."

page 104:

The thing that is happening is that much infrastructure (eg. water supplies, electricity, transport, telecommunications, health services,
education, etc, that the government was "supposed to hold in trust for the people it represents, assets that have been built and maintained with
public money over decades--are sold by the state to private corporations." Guess where that leads?

The book ends with a short glossary of terms, names, etc., that define or explain political parties, important people, important historical
events, and a long list of information sources (21 pages), and an index.

If you want to see how globalization is affecting the so-called "developing countries" this is one good book to start with.



-----------
That aside, is competing a criminal offence?

All depends on whether it is fair or not.

Regardless, you should be
able to eleminate student visas as well as any and every visa issued by
your govt.

I am not against student visas.

Isn't that taxpayer funded

Student visas are not taxpayer funded. Student tuition, if it is granted at the same rate as resident and not non-resident tuition, would be taxpayer funded.

and don't you consider foreign students
parasites?

Why should I consider foreign students parasites? The parasites are the CEOs. The foreigners that come here just to get on our welfare systems are the parasites.

Why don't you want to do away with their visas if you think
that they are taking away something from you?

I'm not interested in this issue. I am interested in parasite corporations that make big mistakes about taking jobs from the US and giving them to India.

Its only te gatecrashers that cannot be denied a visa coz
they don't apply for one.

If the gatecrashers are illegal aliens, then they are illegal.

like the idiots who crossed over from across the atlantic 300 yrs back
to rob the native american tribes of their land?

Like the idiot high caste Indians that force 1/4 of Indians to be Dalits 3000 years ago, and the high caste Indians that think their high caste priviledges should stay with them and not go to "other backwards castes" and Dalits, and have child slavery in India, today, in the rug factories. And, the wife burns in flames when the husband dies.

And, about that event 300 years ago...when are you going to acknoweledge that for 3000+ years there were a lot of wars all over the world where an invader robbed the invaded land? When are you going to face up to the historical fact that all this is not special to the USA?

regards
-kamal


.

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