Re: email from Germany....was: Re: No future for S&E, IT jobs in the USA...




Because when anyone posts somethign positive about S&E
careers, it sounds like it implies that everyone is
successful. Its just misleading.

My glorious S and E career used to pay me 100k when rent was
250 dollars a month, its offering 60 to 75k currently if I can
even get hired. ...rent is 1500 dollars a month now.. and Ive
only had one actual offer in 6 years. The rates are down to
what a guy can make with a pickup truck, two lawn mowers and
an edger... 50 to 60k a year.


I did handyman work to keep from starving to death for 4
years, 98 t0 2002 at 35 dollars an hour.. that was more than I
made on engineering jobs. I am a mechanical/ electrical
contractor now... those rates are 75 to 90 dollars an hour
with dilligence and a mark up on materials... 'Mr Handyman'
in calif charges time out at 90 dollars an hour, and pays its
high school drop out but handy guys 30 dollars an hour, plus
benefits... more than many fully employed degreed engineers
are accepting these days.


when the current building boom is over, that work will get
sparce...still it beats hell out of engineering... Engineering
as a career was destroyed by morons in management and the HR
offices... the nation is directly following.

HR still pays 100 to 120k... some at 180k.... these apply the
latest psychology to find the very best 'workers'...these
think it is the key to success for US corporations... they
want compliant people... regardless how badly prodded...the
opposite of what the best S and E is all about.


In the trades these are mostly high school grads doing this
work.. a few with college, some with no formal education.
Many making more than MS degreed enineers in the US on average
(california rates, its not nearly as rosy in the south), Self
employed an active tradesman can work his own hours, and
easily earn over 100k a year.



Human resource liberal arts majors however are in strong
demand, I see ads for them regularly at 100 to 120k a
year...these are the poeple that ask the engineering
applicants why 'bolt is not on your resume..it says right
here you are a mechancial engineer, and I know bolts should be
on there'.... utter insanity.... then they ask about the GAP
(gasp) in your resume, from may 20th to May 29th in 2003....

I tell em I was driving from Greenville NC to SF calif... they
don't know were Greenville is...and say NINE DAYS!...(as
though I have something to hide) .. where did you LIVE... I
tell em... motels. They want references on the motel
locations..

..and when I was there.. many do not even have the concept of
travel. Some think 'motel' means you lived there. A while
back I told one of these idiots that I couldnt recall the name
of a motel in Kansas...she said... 'was there a restaurant
near by? I said yes...she said do you remember the name of
it? I said yes, it was a Dennys... she said well fine, call
them and ask what the name of the motel across the street is.

Ones mind boggles. The problem with most of us is that
we truly cant fathom how far south the mess in these regards
is... it will pay to notice the various surveys on these
issues... 80% of US citizens on the street (your average
personnel, recruiter or manager type) couldnt find Iraq on a
map... I think it was 80% or more that didnt know who the
Secretary of State was....

experience tells me that 99% know absolutely nothing about
what it takes to be actually valuable and viable in the
engineering business....fraud being their last
refuge....driving more companys world wide to seek other than
US engineering firms.


These get tight for money as they drive the business to
failure... needing of course to keep paying HR and management
6 figures, they degrade what viable engineering and science
entails...they end up with idiots, then point and
say....see... engineers arent worth much. 'We can hire a guy
from the philipines for 12 dollars an hour to do that"

This is the scene...if you dont understand it, you will
tear your hair out trying to fathom the mess.... its always
worse than you think, because everyone puts a glossy front
on...including companies... just under that is the actual
mess.




With engineers out of work and desperate, and the option to
hire green card people at cut rates, they seek to compensate
and make the business viable by hiring 'workers'
cheap...driving off the rest of the talent and insuring that
few major in these fields in college.(4% in the US currently).


These then have meetings where the applicants resume's and
interview results are discussed and screened.... guess who
they hire? Someone in a rage about this mess? No... they
hire some docile idiot.... and then wonder why he doesnt
perform. I was recently asked to come on as manager of 3 of
these types... they offered me half of what I used to make
fixing toilets... I told them that the work they needed done
could be done by one competent man, at 120,000 dollars a year
and no manager... one man could do both.

No answer.

These cant afford to hire 'grunts' for more than they
themselves get paid... managment always has to be at the top
you see, it makes them look bad if they pay more.

These screen for compatabilty.... and other HR fad words.
...and will hire the person with 'bolt' on their resume and who
is sweet to a fault regardless of what the moron doing the
interview does.... one HR idiot told me she does this
deliberately to see how the 'candidtate' will react.

These days I tell them that I dont suffer imbiciles.

Thats killing us.

I stepped out of that mess..... I have my resume out for
sport only now... the recruiters call...most of those lie a
lot... they troll the help wanted ads on line, then search
monster for 'matching resumes' (thats hard work for the
illiterate).... then call wanting to waste your time and fake
you into thinking that they are competent, casual, in charge
and hip....with a hot job to offer you...

...while asking the same litany of standard mindless
questions...'are you looking for work, duhhh... are you
workiing now, what is your rate, where to you live' etc.

I tell them the rate depends entirely on the situation and the
company culture, I tell them that I go anywhere (many cant
fathom that, one asked how I would commute from SF if its 1500
miles to work every day), These will waste half an hour of
your time if you let them, and maybe 4 call backs......wanting
detailed explanations on all that.

Many can't read. Some can read but dont have any technical
vocabulary ...so rely on the 'interview' to determine if you
are 'qualified' or not... their tactic is to challenge
you..'what happened at your last job'.... 'Can you do
math'.... 'how do you engineer for a chemical? '.. 'let me
know your exact process'... They wont understand a word
you are saying...in the end they are looking to see if you
'sound qualified'.


The mess is way worse than any sane person can fathom.





Then I press them for the clients offer...for a while it was
50 to 60k...I tell them that I can make more than that fixing
toilets working 10 am to 2 pm. Lately the recruiters say
the pay is 100 to 120k.,,, they are tired of being slam
dunked, these lie a lot. Then they will try to charge the
firm offering the job 30% (thats 40k) for finding me.... that
never flies.

Then the current batch of idiot recruiters goes back to
selling cars, or make up....and a new batch enters the
'proffession'...oblivious to the entirely of Life, much less
the S and E issues.


S and E's are heading in new directions, the idians are going
back to india in droves, same with many chinese... to be
replaced by even cheaper less literate talent...

the liberal arts major managers, at 100k or more are having a
hard time finding talent .... as the rest of us have gone back
with the tools and are not looking for work in their
mindlessly political environment.. at less then union grocery
clerks make.


CEO's will soon be asking why they are paying managers so much
who cant even find 'grunts' to do the S and E for them...you
know all that nerd stuff, like math and physics.... anyone
knows that 'management is where the actual brains are'.

In the US these people have screwed their companys, the
nation, and the working class to the wall.


it is currently peaking as these decimate the producive base
and brains of the culture...next comes collapse with no
recourse for these people.


Lets see how an HR dingbat with a degree in 'social science'
does after this mess hits the wall..


Phil Scott







I have, ALWAYS, talked about percentage tenure rate,

But used flawed data that differentiate between
departments.

Just prove this, would you? Just show me the data, give me
the refernces and lets look at them. Where is the flaw?

percentage dead end career (failure rates), PhD
overproduction (I cite Massy and Goldman, not me). I never
denied that some guys are happy and some get tenure.

But, I always say, and you cannot deny this is true, that
a PhD career needs all of college (4-5 years) and all of
graduate school (4+ years), and for many another postdoc
period (4 years, at least in bio/med), and for all the X
million kids doing this, you could have them out there
looking for as well paid jobs in less time, and with much
more lateral mobility. Fact.

Fine, I never said getting a PhD in bio/med as a good idea.

No, you said "BS ChE uber alles" and you talk about ChE in
your own life as if "I'm doing just great, therefore there
are no problems in getting a good, high paying, permanent
career."





.

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