Re: Outsourcing jeopardizes U.S. chemical industry, expert says

Russell.Martin@xxxxxxx wrote:
Threeducks wrote:

Straydog wrote:


On Sun, 7 May 2006, Threeducks wrote:


Thomas Bartkus wrote:


"Straydog" <asd@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.63.0605031444390.27771@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


swiped (from a.c.c) and reposted to s.r.c
======================

On Wed, 3 May 2006, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:



http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib2/business/s_449502.html


<snip>

The outsourcing of the chemistry and engineering jobs is
threatening the


future of the American chemical industry, says the leader of the
American
Chemistry Society.
<snip>

That pretty well sums up my own anecdotal experience. I'm a fugitive
from
an industrial chemistry career. Not because I wasn't good at it ;-)
But
because the opportunities in industrial chemistry were drying up and
opportunities were paying so much better elsewhere - outside my formal
education in chemistry.


Then what do you care about the current job market? You and Rob amaze
me. When I leave and area, I leave it. I don't hang around an a
science newsgroup and bitch and moan about how science and/or
engineering jobs are all crap. Christ, if my career in engineering
went in the toilet I would walk away and never look back. You guys
are like the guy who gets dumped by his girlfriend, but keeps her
picture in their wallet for years afterward.


If you want to complain about us because we see waste in the process,
disappointment for those who worked hard for something and either didn't
get it or lost it afterwards (through any of the mechanisms that are
part of normal life), or we notice that this is happening (now because
of offshoring) and regret it, and you have no similar feelings (and no
ideas to help) then why don't you move off this NG and go over the the
chem & eng newsgroups where they maybe never talk about careers.

Art, I'm being specific here. I'm not talking about everyone, although
there is that general attitude on this newsgroup. I don't pretend to
know everything about everything, just a bit about my part of the universe.


And, what if we are guys who got dumped by a girlfriend and keep a
picture in the wallet? I have heard many stories, and even some that get
into history books, about people who lost their mates one way or the
other and lived the rest of their lives grieving over it. I know a woman
who still loves (loved?) her first husband (they split up, mutually) and
she is still remorseful that she didn't get from him the reciprocation
she wanted (she remarried, he didn't. When I met her again many years
afterward the only thing she talked about was the first husband). I'll
tell you one thing: they don't want you to ask them if they've "gotten
over it" or "gotten past it." I'll leave it to the individuals to decide
how they want to "deal with" their lives but I'll be sensitive to what
they would like me to say and how I say it. Sometimes they will even say
to me something like "Thank you for your concern" or "Thank you for
asking." You can learn something from that or ignore it. It's up to you.

I'm happy for you for your up-to-now success, and maybe you have that
"cold" dump-it-and-move-on personality. History, and real life, is also
filled with examples of parents who have kids, then don't care about them,
ignore them, dump them and abuse them, too, with coldness, and without
regrets or guilt. Fine with me. We've had lots of guys like you since 1992,
when I first came here, too. All they care about is what goes on in
their own back yards and all they want to hear about are the success
stories and nothing else.

You're stretching again. I have concern for my students, especially
those that are having trouble with their careers. What I am saying,
though, is there is no point in reopening old wounds. Just get over it
and move on.

And, what would a careers newsgroup sound like that never talked about
failures, disappointments, strategies to avoid, strategies to pursue?

I don't think I said don't ever talk about failures. I just find it odd
that people who are not in science or engineering careers any more would
have any interest in such things. I would be interested in what I am
doing right now, today. Even with research. Things I did 10 years ago
are just that, research I did 10 years ago. I do new things now, I
don't pine over what I did way back when.


That's fine, but I tend to get attached to my research.
I think that's what helps drive some scientists. I'd still
like to solve problems that remained when I dropped
some past research topics, because I A) am curious
and B) don't like getting beaten by Mother Nature. :-)
But I don't mind moving on to other topics, because
they are interesting, too.


Would it be wise to talk about "The Titanic is Unsinkable"? "Get a
college degree because its guaranteed to get you a better job?" I
remember you complaining, what 1-2 years ago, about a lazy student of
yours. Is he still there? Are you writing grant/contract proposals for
the fun of it? Care to tell us you got 100% funding success rates with
your proposals?
You don't have to answer any of these if you don't want to.

I have fired a few students and discipline over the last couple years
has improved significantly. So has productivity. As for grant
proposals, I have not had 100% success (more like 10-20%). With NSF
its usually very good reviews, but no money available. I did manage to
get a grant from NSF last year, despite budget cuts and funding rates of
5-10%.

However, now that I have established myself as an expert in certain
things, I don't have to do all the heavy lifting myself. I get a few
"we are doing X, but we need someone who is an expert in Y, do you want
to be on our proposal?" every year. These are really easy to write
since I just have to contribute a page or two on my stuff while someone
else has to be responsible for everything else. To me, these are
essentially "free" proposals.

Then there are the "secret" opportunities that I'm aware of that I was
not before. Generally, places like DoD, Army, Homeland Security, DOE,
etc. do not like to deal with unsolicited proposals. They don't even
have to review them if they don't want to, they can just say "not
interested" and you're done. You can call them and after dancing for a
while maybe get something going. I've tried this and it's a real
hassle. However, if you are "the guy" who can solve a problem they
really want solved, they will come to you. If they did not call you,
though, there is no way you would ever know an opportunity for funding
existed, let alone how to apply for it. As you can imagine, funding
rates for these types of proposals are much better than 10%. The last
project I was involved with, the number of proposals was capped
specifically to yield a final funding rate of 30-40%. That's a hell of
a lot better than the 5-10% you get by going to NSF.



I know only one guy who ever said he got every grant he ever applied for
and he also was not an egotist about it. He knew he was the exception.
And, I knew guys who were uncomfortable talking about their funding, and
I knew guys who were upfront about it, too. And, the only guys it didnt'
matter for were the guys where the chair would put them back to full
time teaching and they could keep some fraction, maybe all, of their
salary.

Every junior faculty member I spoken to in the last two years has
complained about funding. Some are losing their jobs over it (tenure
denied). These are high quality people, but the money just isn't where
they were fishing. I may not be the smartest guy around, but I was
smart enough to see which way the wind was blowing and sail towards
areas where I would be the only guy fishing in that pond. I guess
that's what you've been saying for years about careers. Fish in a pond
with a. more fish, or b. less fishermen. The same goes for research
funding.


It seems to me like you're saying just what a lot of
us have been saying, only you're not as upset by
the situation. Oh well, everyone has their own
personality.

Exactly. I have a good life, a great family and a decent job. Overall, I have nothing to complain about, so I think I should be happy.


If everyone followed you to fish where the few fish
are, your fishing there might not be as successful
or it wouldn't improve the success of the new
people, so ultimately the problem is not enough
fish in the ecosystem or too many fishermen even
if some fishermen catch enough fish. The problem
some of us have is that our "leaders" keep saying
we need more fisherman, or are even trying their
best to import more, when it seems to us that
there are not enough fish for the people presently
standing on the shore or sitting in the boats.

I think we need a lot more money, but I guess we'd rather use it to bomb sand dunes in Iraq.
.

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