Re: Outsourcing jeopardizes U.S. chemical industry, expert says

Thomas Bartkus wrote:
"Threeducks" <threeducks@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:U4mdnelpV75wDcDZnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Thomas Bartkus wrote:
"Straydog" <asd@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.63.0605031444390.27771@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

swiped (from a.c.c) and reposted to s.r.c
======================

On Wed, 3 May 2006, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:


http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib2/business/s_449502.html


<snip>

The outsourcing of the chemistry and engineering jobs is threatening
the

future of the American chemical industry, says the leader of the
American
Chemistry Society.
<snip>

That pretty well sums up my own anecdotal experience. I'm a fugitive
from
an industrial chemistry career. Not because I wasn't good at it ;-)
But
because the opportunities in industrial chemistry were drying up and
opportunities were paying so much better elsewhere - outside my formal
education in chemistry.


Then what do you care about the current job market? You and Rob amaze
me. When I leave and area, I leave it.

I still get to service some industrial plant automation I did 10, 15, even
20 years ago and it makes me weep to think of what I could do with what I
know now if only I could get mgmt. to spring for renovation rather than
keeping 20 year old stuff limping along.

And part of my fascination with this particular newsgroup is the result of
my still having my finger in the pie. I do sell some services to
researchers who are dependant on grant moneys. I also *donate* services to
some of these who are always short on $. I may tell myself I do this in the
hopes that one of these guys will hit it with a big discovery and beaucoup $
but the truth is I just love being involved in the science in whatever form
I can manage it without risking personal penury. I'm just not willing to
make the sacrifices I see some of these guys make.

In point of fact, I haven't left the area even though I now earn most of my
income from somewhat less technical areas.

I don't hang around an a
science newsgroup and bitch and moan about how science and/or
engineering jobs are all crap.

Then hang around those newsgroups where there is exchange built around
career success stories. Whatever happened to those?

Christ, if my career in engineering went
in the toilet I would walk away and never look back. You guys are like
the guy who gets dumped by his girlfriend, but keeps her picture in
their wallet for years afterward.

Oh come on now!
There is a need to earn a living and there are hobbies. And happy are those
who can turn their hobbies (loves?) into an income stream instead of an
income sinkhole. What sci.research.*careers* has become is what the career
situation has become for the people who seek those careers. What in heavens
name do you expect here? Younger people are seeking careers elsewhere and
50 somethings are doing post mortems.

Where are all the young graduates from your classes hanging out? Exchanging
succesful career info now that we curmudgeons have driven them off this
particular newsgroup? Where are the personal success testimonies?

If I wanted to know how good a hospital was I would talk to patients, paying
no attention to the hospital PR dept. This is where the patients talk.

I know about several chemical plants (not directly oil related!) still
operating in the USA. They are being run deliberately at a $ loss so
that
the parent companies evade much larger clean up costs involved in
properly
shutting them down. A bummer working for such companies! Thirty year
old
gauges have to fall off the walls before anyone will spring $ to replace
them. No profit propects so what's the point?

I know of a bunch of plants that are well run and major investments are
continually being made.

Fair enough! If I haven't made it abundantly clear, let me do so now and
state that my own particular career pathways have taken me down one road and
I don't necessarily see what is going on down roads I haven't traveled. I
hang around places like this to see the experience of others. One thing I
am particularly struck by is the notion that unless you are ensconced in a
well funded academic situation - you have no science career. I suspect this
notion is true. And I look for credible evidence to the contrary!

Where are the older guys who can point back at 30 or 40 year successful
careers in chemistry. 20 years? 10 ? Who do incoming freshmen talk to
when choosing their majors? Who can show them that chemistry/science will
provide rewarding careers when compared to a business major? By offering
their own prosperous work history as a practical example?

Or do you, like our own congress, just piss and moan about lazy Americans
who shun science careers? Offering nothing but lame rationalization to
explain the situation to a compliant and lazy media.

Threeducks seems to indicate that there is a growing need for
chemists/ChemEs in the USA to fill a growing industry in specialty
chemicals. I would *love* to hear more good news about opportunities
for
real life chemists in the USA.

I just don't get to see it myself!

Well, that's what I'm told, right from the guys who are doing the
hiring. I don't know why they would tell me they would need more ChE if
they didn't. They also hire our graduates, so I haven't seen the
"produce more, but we aren't going to hiring any of them" phenomena.

Hey! I talk to some of those guys who claim to be hiring too!

"Don't you know anybody to recommend? We need one or two sharp guys for an
entry level position. Low pay but great opportunity for advancement."

And no - I don't know anybody. And if I did, I would warn them away.

I don't think I ever mentioned anything specifically about specialty
chemicals, although that is were some of the industry in the US has gone.

I would still be interested in hearing where the *growth* in
science/engineering careers are. Particularly chemistry and chem. E.
Obviously there are always opportunities for good people in any field of
endeavor.

Yes. And to elaborate on that, say someone is in
the top 2% of something we'll call "ability". Think
academic skills for instance, ignoring for a moment
how well such skills might translate to the real world
(obviously the real world often makes this assumption
or the top GPA people wouldn't be the people being
most hotly recruited). Now assume that a given field
can only support people from the top 1% who are
coming out of school. That means a person who is
"only" at the 98th percentile probably won't be able to
make it in that field, and gets labeled a "loser" while
the government complains that there are not enough
people in the top 1% to fill all the jobs. We need to
move to Lake Superwobegone, where not only are
all the children above average, they are all in the top
1%. ;-)

Are science and engineering positions in the US growing as fast
as job seekers enter the workforce? Are those positions as lucrative as
careers in marketing or accounting. My school experience is rather dated.
But I do remember that chemistry was not only more academically rigourous,
it was also more expensive. More credit hours and tuition compared to
accounting, for example. The saving grace is that if you can do chemistry,
you can *always* fall back on accounting if you can handle the boredom ;-)

I already know about highly educated eastern Europeans, Indians, and Chinese
fleeing from a lack of opportunity and looking towards the US. But where do
young American citizens, going into hock up to the eyeballs paying their own
tuitions, look?

One thing is for sure. Students *will* go where the money is.

And shun the careers where it isn't.
Thomas Bartkus

Cheers,
Russell

.

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