Re: uh-ah (more bashing of "skills shortage")



On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Threeducks wrote:

Straydog wrote: 


On Thu, 24 Nov 2005, Threeducks wrote:

Straydog wrote:



On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Threeducks wrote:


deleted...



Well, I got that impression, too, and wanted to see if you could come up with some data (besides the "shortage shouting") that engineering jobs are actually hiring a large proportion of the graduating engineers.


There's no shortage around here. I tell my students that the job market is tough and they better be busting their tail in and out of school to land they job they want. Unfortunately, many students are simply looking to check off the boxes, without regard for excelling at anything.

That said, a tough job market does not exclude the possibility of having a good career in science/engineering.


Well, that's fine. However, what is the purpose of college (undergraduate or graduate) if only a fraction of those completing the requirements ever get "a good career in science/engineering".

Good question, what is the purpose of college? Is it to be "job training" or is it education? Some of both? Why do we offer English degrees, when no one can find employment with one? I don't know, but some kids want an English degree. Go figure.

Ok, here's MY answer to the question: if a guy comes to me, a teacher (or faculty of a teaching instutition [research doesn't count in this example]) and says I want to _learn_ X so that I can _do_ X for a living, then that guy should be told: a) you can learn X but no guarantees or even assurances after that, _OR_ b) you can learn Y and here is the data that tells you what your long term, average, prospects are doing Y for a living, or iii) you can learn Z and we don't even say "no guarantees or assurances" and we don't say anything about "data".

If the kid _just_ wants a degree in English, then, fine. I'm not going to try to tell the guy what he should want or not want...because...he doesn't know or doesn't care or doesn't care yet. When the parents kick the guy out to start living on his own, then maybe the guy will start thinking about this. And, yes, I've known some parents with this "problem."

Now I realize the reality is that eg. in Medicine, the majority of graduates (getting the MD) will find a "good career" but I know that in science (and to at least some degree in engineeering [based on some studies and a few friends whose kids getting engineering degrees who looked for but never got an engineering job) a lot do not get good careers and even those who get jobs eventually become part of the attrition, either voluntarily (they don't like it or get tired of it) or involuntarily (politics, grants, layoffs).

The difference is that in medicine they bust everyone's balls before the y get into the program.

Not only the dean, but the freshman med student orrientation manual (I saw it, read some of it), said that medicine is not rocket science, but everyone has to work. 80-120 hour/week internships are a grind. And, since, at least at UMAB, kids were getting in with less to substantially less than a A average, I don't think they were busting their asses that much. The days where the exam involved sticking your hands into a bag of bones and naming all of them without seeing them are over.

I also know prof's who always seem to get the best
graduate students.

What I have seen is a higher degree of attention by profs to get good postdocs. And, the postdocs or almost postdocs spend a lot more time looking for appropriate, high profile, and well connected postdoctoral sponsors.

It's not luck. These guys have figured out how to evaluate talent very well and only take the students they know will succeed. I used to give chances to just about anyone who asked for one, but all it got me was a headache and an empty grant account. Now I screen students carefully before letting them in my group.

Well, I know, too, that there are duds out there. Good to avoid them if possible. Profs I have known prefer to get postdocs into their groups rather than graduate students.



Great stats. Now I can tell you about a whole bunch of folks who wanted to be MDs, but didn't make it to med school.


OK, the facts are that about 150,000 kids apply to med school and only about 35,000 are accepted. How many apply a second time around?, third time? I've heard of up to seven applications for one guy. He finally got in. Now, graduate school: I hear its a national average: 50%. How many of those apply again next cycle? I don't know offhand.

I have a hard time believing that a US citizen who isn't a moron would not get accepted into a graduate science or engineering program. Ok, not all of them will get into MIT, but second or third tier schools should be no problem.

Well, I asked around a little. Yeah, the "graduate student advisors" I talke to turn down half of the applicants. I'm not saying there isn't a range more or less than that, but that's what I was told. I've heard there are graduate programs where they only take 10% of the applicants, so that could be the most stringent. And, I'll guess that there are other places where they take 90% of the applicants.



Yeah, but I'm telling you about the stats where its a fact that the number of PhD-requiring jobs being produced each year is one half of the number of PhDs being produced each year and that is from an NRC study for the biosciences (ref on my website), and from the Massey & Goldman study, the number of other science and even engineering subjects, the number of PhDs being produced ALSO exceeded the number of new PhD-requiring jobs being produced. So, they get into grad school, and its like musical chairs when they come out: less chairs than people.

Now, fine, one can have the "hard attitude" that "that's tough, isn't it" and if that's the way you feel, fine. If the kids don't WORK in grad school or undergrad, then they should be flunked out. But it would be bad for "business" wouldn't it? The classes would be less full, they'd have to lay off some profs, eh? I think its a waste of everyone's time if only the A students get the job. Even a C student should be competant enough to do any average engineering job. If they can't, then why did they get a passing grade? Gift? Bad idea!

We had a lot of discussion about this over the last few use in my college. There were two groups. One was "should we give an opportunity to everyone" and the other was "we need to raise standards so we don't become a joke". Fortunately option two won out. However, our enrollments are way down over the last two years and I'm not sure when/if they are going to come back.

Well, I think the standards should not be adjusted downward. There is a trend in the country, it seems, to avoid S&E but a lot of it might have something to do with the fact that there isn't much S&E in our media. I heard that after the Enron/Andersen *** hit the fan, there was a big uptick in the applications for accounting degrees and MBAs. A couple of powerful lawyer TV programs were running a while back (I dont watch much TV at all), and the law school deans were writing editorials about the big wave of applicants to law school. Gotta figure that into the equation.

Many people have the midset that it would be better for everyone (student and college) to flunk out weak students. That way they would not waste 4-5 years getting a worthless degree and we would not take a hit in reputation for graduating weak students.

Better to sellect from applicants those more likely to succeed, and then, after maybe first year of grind, tell those who are not going to make it to leave.

 If you

can't handle the gore, you are automatically out (put me in that catagory).


You're supposed--according to the deans of admissions of medical schools--"get over that" by doing volunteer work in an ER room. I've been on the interview committee at UMAN SoM and saw the applications & letters of recommendation where kids do just that. First mess in the ER they see, and they all vomit. They come back and get over it. Its in the letters of recommendation, too.

Ugh. I can't imagine it, but if you say so...

Well, I had a very rough course in Veterinary Microbiology. I saw live and unanesthetised animals mutilated and I almost fainted. Yeah, I got over it. Later I was doing cardiac punctures on live, unanesthetised rabbits. Big ones. And, they can scream. And, they can bite, too.



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