Re: Rising Above The Gathering Storm: Energizing and Employing America for a Brighter Economic Future



On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Kamal R. Prasad wrote:


Straydog wrote: 
On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Kamal R. Prasad wrote:


Randy wrote:
Kamal R. Prasad wrote:
Randy wrote:
... 
BEST AND BRIGHTEST Recommendation C: Make the United States the most
attractive setting in which to study, perform research, and
commercialize technologic innovation so that we can develop, recruit,
and retain the best and brightest students, scientists, and engineers
from within the United States and throughout the world.


Apparently, well-qualified foreigners are being lambasted for taking
away oppurtunities from citizens.
Why do you want tp invite people in -if you don't like them? Let them
stay where they are -and  try to make the best of what you have.


You should read the document.  Most thoughtful folks in the US are aware
that skilled immigrants are and have long been essential to the US's
economic growth and competitve advantage.  The report suggests much of


translates to .."americans like to live off the hard work of foreigners
but some are loathe to admit it".


No, the better translation is that "if we can't convince our locals to
warm up the teaching seats in the classroom, then we can't justify large
budgets for the salaries of the professors, so we gotta get them from
someplace else."

Kamal also likes the view that only immigrants to the US have brains.
After immigrants come here, they give birth to US citizens which are
stupid. And, nobody who is born in the USA has any brains, doesn't do
anything bright or technical...only immigrants do these things.

No - I didn't say/imply that americans are stupid.

That's funny, I remember you saying and implying, many times, how stupid Americans are and saying and implying, many times, that only immigrants are smart and can do anything.

I said they like to
live of other people's hard work.

And, this never happened in any other country and never happened at any other time? Did you not have slaves in India at one time? Its a fact. Do not many of YOUR Indian companies send even their work to China where its even cheaper? This is a fact that has appeared in our media a few times now.

Most of the hispanics in the US are 
uneducated -yet they are hard-working and persecuted by law enforcement
agencies.

Its a fact that all immigrants that came to this country, going back at least 220 years, were exploited. And, its in the books that except for the recent few decades ALL of the prior immigrants were mostly Europeans.

The americans crying hoarse over their illegal status are 
conspicousoly silent about disowning the economic benefits that they
bring to the US economy.

This is crazy. The ones who want illegals here are the rich people who get richer thereby. The ones who don't want illegals are the ones displaced or could be displaced by their presence. There is no economic benefit of illegals because they drive DOWN the wages of the poor. This is a fact.

Same holds true for just about every foreigner
who contributes to the US economy. 

As if no local/domestic persons contributed anything to the US economy.


the same that I've heard elsewhere -- we need to encourage foreigners
who earn their tech degrees here to stay here.  We need to make the tech
climate in the US more attractive for all innovators, whether American
born or not.

most of the skilled foreigners you mention earn their under-grad
degrees in their hme country (india/china etc..) with taxpaer funding
-esp if they are talented.


And, a fraction come over here with fake documents, poor preparation, and
all they want, first, before anything else, is a car. I had one of these
guys from China. Not too bright, not hard working.

The rules for student visa are real tight right now.

What does this have to do with the fraction that come over on fake documents, poor preparation, and all they want, first, is a car and working hard is second priority.

The US has long attracted such people with a 
promise of a better lifestyle -but the differences are narrowing down
and the climate being as hostile as ever, it is better not to invite
them without building a consensus.


The controversies, I am sure, will increase in the future.

If you invite someone to your country and another american throws
stones at the invitee -then you are not being fair to him.

Oh, you mean its not fair to throw stones at the CEOs who are the ones doing the "worker replacement scheme"? Where an American trains an Indian and when the training period is over, they lay off the American? And, where is the "fairness" to the American? I would throw stones, too.

Better thing 
is to ensure that he doesn't get invited by arriving at a consensus
with the invigter (emplyer/univ etc..) and that way you will be able to
keep your country to yourself.

Its not MY country. The country belongs to the rich. We peasants don't have a country.

Of course the whole story is more complicated than that.  But to win any
competition, you must make the most of the resources available to you.

if you make the most of the resources you already have 

We have a lot of special interest groups, just as you have conflict
betwwen your communist politicians and your reformers, in your country.

better to get into a street brawl with such special interest groups
-than with forigners who may have been lured into a trap.

Since the foreigners are still in a _minority_, I would win because I am with the _majority_.

-americans will 
not feel dis-franchised in their own country seeing better qualified
foreigners take up better paying jobs.


See, here is Kamal's unproven conclusion: "...better qualified..." Just
like persons born in the USA are no good, only Indias or immigrants are
worth anything.

well -if you attract the best and brightest from other countries -there
are bound to be better qualified aliens compared to quite a few locals.


But not the best and brightest of the locals.

The more you attract talent from other countries -the greater the
possibility that they will out-run natives.

The only possibility is that the Harvard MBAs will show a little more in the bottom line, or a little less absolute costs. Since a lot of offshoring has failed, the real costs are higher.

if you do want the best 
oppurtunities for natives -the right thing to do is not to attract
better qualified foreigners.

What we need is to not destroy our local tallent and not destroy the money that flows into our economy from compensated work done for the corporations.



INCENTIVES FOR INNOVATION Recommendation D: Ensure that the United
States is the premier place in the world to innovate, invest in
downstream activities, and create high-paying jobs that are based on



and what iif innovatoprs overseas refuse to leave their country?

regards
-kamal


We'll invade their country and conscript them, of course...

doesn't look like its do-able with India. Its too hostile a country for
foreign domination to happen.


They might not even fight with the high poverty rate.

they will -coz they associate foreigm domination with poverty and
famine and the country has improved since it became independent.

Do you actually have many weapons besides a few atomic bombs that were meant for Pakistan, your historical enemy? Especially since your two countries have had a (silly) history of conducting atomic bomb tests against one another to "show off" to each other by what we call "sabre rattling." (sub note: the US and the USSR used to do the same thing [otherwise called "brinkmanship politics"])

FYI 
India was aligned with the anglo-american alliance and they parted
company because the US govt wanted bases the way they do for all nato
members  which the govt considered a hard sell to the public.


Is that why the communist party is still so strong in India?

Its 
something of a given that americans won't be able to establish any base
in india -no matter what strategy they follow (force, coercion,
diplomacy etc,,()

We never got any bases in China, either. Why is this detail with India so special?

At the peak of its military power(and its not necessarily in the past),
the US has had bases in almost every country in EU and in just about
every continent -but not a single soldier in India.


That's because Indian government was mostly socialist/communist for a long
time. Even now, there are a lot of communists among the politicians.

Most of India's socialist policies origniated in Britain and many of
US's european allies are socialist.


And, where is India today? still a long way on the reform trail.

I guess you can't remember the following which I posted several times now:
I remember and it is not relevant. 

Oh? Lets let the other readers decide for themselves.


------------------------
The latest on India, Singh, and Communism

(reference: Business Week, Sept 26, 2005, page 63)

Article title: "Warning Flags For Investors in India" edited by
Rose Brady, authored by Manjeet Kripalani (in Bombay)

"In the last few months, Communists in the Congress Party-led
ruling ruling coalition have blocked nearly all efforts at economic
liberalism. That's a setback for Singh, ...."

"Faced with opposition from hardliner Prakash Karat, leader of the
Communist Party of India, and other leftists, Singh has had to take
privatization of state-owned companies off the agenda. Labor
reform, which would have allowed easier hiring and firing of
workers, has stalled, as have plans to lift limits on foreign
direct investment in banking and insurance [read: more jobs from
the USA to India]."

"In their latest move, Communists are battling proposals to allow
foreign participants in India's retail trade, which they fear will
hit mom-and-pop stores [read: the rich get richer, the poor get
poorer] 'The Left wants to demonstrate to its constituents that it
calls the shots in Delhi."

"Singh also faces resistance from socialists in his own party. Even
Sonai Gandihi, the powerful congress Party leader, is acting more
populist than reformist. With an eye on future elections, she is
pushing a rural employment scheme that would guarantee one member
of each rural household 100 days of labor. That could blow a $30
billion hole in India's finances and boost the fiscal deficit,
already 10% of gross domestic product."

"Business is concerend about the slow reform pace. Nandan M.
Nileknai, CEO of software player Infosys Technologies Ltd.,
maintains that India will keep growing at 7% for now. But he's
worried about the longer term, because more than 14 millions
Indians enter the job market each year."

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