Re: Error in Wikipedia article: Faraday's law of induction

Certainly every material has free or valence electrons. That doesn't make
them negative. I know what you are saying and I disagree with your
terminology.

As for the Kelvin generator- I didn't realise that I was admitting anything.
I simply said that it is the externally applied field (which can be due to
stray ions ) which causes the ionization of the water- take this away and
there will be no more charging. In order to keep this going, it is necessary
to have positive feedback and this device has that - it wouldn't work if you
had more or less negative ions only. It is an ingeneous device.

A few details:
- absolute potential is a mathematical concept and, in itself , is
meaningless and cannot be measured. I have looked through some references
and dredged my memory and if I had heard the term it would have been about
1950. Modern texts don't use the term, although they do give an expression
for it, without naming it, based on the field due to point charges (also
mathematically expressed). It is useful for the evaluation of a potential
difference in simple configurations where you can consider a collection of
known charges at known positions and want to find the potential difference
between two points in that space. In other words it can be used to find
something meaningful but, in itself, is meaningless as it is the potential
with respect to a point at infinity which is literally out of this universe-
a non-physical idealism.
-I note that an H+ion has no free electrons. Other positive ions exist which
can have no free electrons. Are they still negative? or neutral?
-In gasses, positive ions can be charge carriers. Their behavour in such
factors as breakdown and corona differ from the behaviour of electrons. This
is not going back to some long obsolete "two fluid" approach.
-charge separation is not just a fluctuation and the distribution is such
that, with respect to a neutral reference some areas are positive and some
are negative. That is the terminology used and you simply are using your own
terminology which doesn't help.
-With regard to this- fire a positive ion through a magnetic field and its
turns in the opposite direction to that which a negative particle turns
(observed). If it were simply "less negative" this wouldn't be the case.
There are other problems with your contention such as the direction of force
between two charges. (again the observed behavior is not consistent with the
"all negative" concept.).

So, while I know enough to know limits on my knowledge, it appears that you
haven't reached that stage as yet. My previous advice still holds.

Bye, have a good day




Don Kelly dhky@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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----------------------------
"Szczepan Bia³ek" <sz.bialek@xxxxx> wrote in message
news:g64240$8ea$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Don Kelly"

Is a water drop charged? Since, inherently it has as many H+ as OH-
ions, it is neutral. Can it pick up or lose electrons- certainly. Put the
drop in an electric field and it will be polarized without any change in
the number of electrons or positive ions.

You forget about one more mechanism. The Earth is the charged body and as
such attract neutral body. When neutral body tauch the charged body it
gains electrons and is repelled. Water also gains electrons - dry air not.
In the result all bodies in the air have an excess of electrons.

Provide some means to extract or add electrons and it is no longer
neutral. A cat and a glass rod are both
neutral but stroke the cat with the rod and one will gain electrons from
the other- no longer neutral.

Of course, the stroking involves mechanical work as producing a potential
difference involves work- just as work is done to separate charge in a
storm.

A cat and a glass are at the same end of the triboelectric series
(positive). So the charge separation means also more and less (not +/-
only). The same is in a storm. It is a problem of terminology. Maybe that
"fluctuations" and/or distribution would be better than separation.

I have learned something, but not from you but in checking some
references so I have gained.

Me too.You have admitted that the Kelvin's generator needs a initial
charge. The fact that the wet air gains electricity was discovered by
Coulomb. The both are still in power. So your problem is the terminology.
Please take into account that the terminology is from times where were the
two electric fluids. Now is time of electrons and all must be "translated"
correctly.

Bye and don't bother with a reply.

Here is more readers (I hope).
S*
--

Don Kelly dhky@xxxxxxxxxxxx
remove the X to answer










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