Re: Error in Wikipedia article: Faraday's law of induction

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"Szczepan Bia³ek" <sz.bialek@xxxxx> wrote in message
news:g5s47l$u8$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Don Kelly" <dhky@xxxxxxx> wrote news:eCegk.80623$kx.31119@xxxxxxxxxxxx


However you can't get a positive stroke to ground (which exist) out of
"negative stroke cloud-ground-next cloud" by any twist of illogic.

Here are details: http://plaza.ufl.edu/rakov/ICLP2000/positive1.16.pdf

Thank you for the reference. Please note that this article considers
positive, negative and bipolar strokes. It doesn't say what you claim. By
the way, I have met, and knew, professionally, one of the authors
cited.(Janischewski) who, I admit freely has more knowledge of lightning
than I have. He had criticism of the Alberta data- not the polarity
information but the accuracy of the current magnitudes and had suggestions
for improvement. I was not familiar with the bi-polar aspect but that
doesn't support your position- nor does the rest of the paper.
As for the rest of what you say, there is a minim of truth therein. However,
you simply claim that there is an excess of electrons on the surface of the
earth. Whether or not this is true is not of concern when you consider
earth-cloud relationships. Given that your contention is true then one can
consider that some regions are more or less negative (with respect to ???).
With respect to Mount Everest, then all locations on earth are more or less
negative. So what reference do we consider as 0 on our scale? Some unknown
location in far space? The ionosphere?

If, as we generally do, we use earth as the reference, then some regions in
clouds are positive and some are negative with respect to earth. The
direction of electron flow (ignoring the real possibility of positive ion
movement) in any current to earth will be dependent upon this.

You have now come from trying to express positive discharges to earth as
part of a negative cloud- earth-cloud discharge to trying to produce your
own terminology that is not defined for all but varies as it suits your
purpose.


--

Don Kelly dhky@xxxxxxxxxxxx
remove the X to answer


--
and within each H2O molecule there is one H+ ion for every OH- ion so
both migrate. The problem is that the droplets are essentially neutral so
the net charge is 0. In a storm, there are mechanisms that cause charge
separation. You are hand waving again.

You are a victim of terminology. The surface of the Earth and all
suspension in the air has excess of electrons. Each electron emited from
earth is immediately arounded by H2O. So in the air are aggregates not
molecules.

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3. Voltage is raising when drops rise (Armstrong and Kelvin made such
high voltage generators in XIX century)
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And if you look at these generators, there is a mechanism that puts a
charge on the initially neutral drops. Did you conveniently ignore this?
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4. Electrons come back to Earth when a cloud disappear
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Lets see, if there is a negatively charged cloud overhead, there will be
a situation where the free electrons in the ground underneath are
repelled leaving a local positive charge.

You are victim of terminology. Positive/negative in all references means
less/more. Current flows from + to -. No matter if it is +/- 100 or 1000
and 800V.
On all sketches small pluses indicate places to which electrons flow.They
flow from regions with small minuses.
In electrostatics small pluses means deficit of electrons.

"the free electrons in the ground underneath are repelled" but an excess
remains.

No cloud and the normal distribution returns. Note that your statement 4
is in contradiction with your implications in statement 1.

It seems that you are able to understand the nuance of terminology. Try
it.
S*



.

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