Re: Error in Wikipedia article: Faraday's law of induction



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"Szczepan Bia³ek" <sz.bialek@xxxxx> wrote in message
news:g5pfrp$epk$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Don Kelly" <dhky@xxxxxxx> wrote news:BaWfk.115014$gc5.20350@xxxxxxxxxxxx


So, the group of droplets has a greater capacitance to ground than your
single large drop.

It is the full knowledge about atmospheric electricity.

The original total capacitance of the separated drops depends on their
positions- with respect to each other and with respect to ground or
whatever is being used as a reference- this is something that you have
entirely ignored.

They are details.

You are trying to compare a single large drop with 10 electrons to
a single small drop of 1 electron. and haven't even got the math right.
Meaningless!
I was in a hurry. The 100V is for 1000 drops. But I do not know if the
capacitance of drop is proportional to the surface or to the radius. In
painting is assumed that to surface. But it is also detail.
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So with 1000 drops, we jump from 1000 1mm droplets with 1 electron charge to
a 10mm drop with 1000 electrons and you are still wrong. Now consider the
non trivial problem of the capacitance of a sphere to a ground plane.
It seems that details are only of interest if they support your contention.
When considering these details, your contentions are shown to be garbage,
then they are unimportant.

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. What becomes important in breakdown (, is not the total voltage to
ground but the high fields in the vicinity of this large charge.

Field are math.
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Again you are wrong.
A field is a region of influence-no more, no less. If you stand in front of
a thermal source, you are influences - thermal field. If you step off a
cliff, you may be terminally influenced by gravity. This influence is real,
not a mathematical abstraction. Mathematics is the simply the most
appropriate language for quantitative and qualitative description of a
given reality.
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You say it is not possible but it has been found by measurements that
there are regions of positive charge not just different amounts of
negative charges. There is theory backed by experiment that gives at
least one mechanism for this. In addition, there is solid data that some
lightning strokes originate in regions of positive charge. I'll stick
with what is known rather than what you say is not possible.

Could you explain the term "regions of positive charge". There are the two
possibilities:
1. On the drops (or ice) is deficit of electrons,
2. The voltage is lower than in adjacent region
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1. is valid .See below
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The references that I have given are physics and engineering references-
not meteorologists ' terminology. Consider a droplet that is being
swept up and cooled - there is a difference in mobility between the H+
ions and the OH- ions in the drop. Suffice it to say that a supercooled
droplet may suddenly freeze (same as water in a supercooled stream can
suddenly freeze from the bottom) and the outer and lighter shards are +
and are swept upward faster and further than the heavier -ve core.
Whether this is the actual mechanism or some other mechanism occurs -
there do exist regions of positive charge (not less negative charge) - as
you would know if you sat down and read some of the technical literature
with regard to lightning. A review of electrostatics might also help.
In other words take time to learn more about the subject before making
patently incorrect statements.

I have had resently a glance at:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w54350750g275214/
It is obvious that many terms my be incorect understand by readers.
The most important are:
1. Electrification
2. Negative/positive charging
3. Charge separation
4. Charge generation.

Almost all references are in full agreement with my point of view. It is
time to prepare definitions for the above terms ( "A review of
electrostatics might also help")
Could you start with your proposals?

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I only see the content listed and not the details so I can't comment in
detail. However, it appears that it is quite in line with the references
that I cited. Note that it does mention the various charging mechanisms
which you have completely ignored. It is also interesting to note that you
simply have ignored the positive side of negative/positive charging, changed
your mind on charge separation and suddenly recognise charge generation.
Are you changing your views to fit the references? Good because the views
that you have presented here certainly are not valid.

My proposal is that you read the available literature, including anything
that you can get that is written by Umans and, as a precurser for this ,
start with a good text dealing with electrostatics. Take note of the
actual recorded information and data that is available. This is all that I
ask of you. It is a lot as some of the factors are not trivial.

When you have done this - and actually know what you are talking about, come
back.

Bye

Don Kelly dhky@xxxxxxxxxxxx
remove the X to answer



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