Re: Why do I smell bacon when Dems say "Stimulus"

On Feb 9, 6:43 am, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
g lof2 <glof_...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

:On Feb 8, 9:19 pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote::> tankfixer <paul.carr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

:>
:> :In article <7d0vo4d6ra47n9pkjfj8pe3hh57hcod...@xxxxxxx>,
:> :fjmcc...@xxxxxxxxx says...:> tankfixer <paul.carr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
:>
:> :>
:> :> :In article <ncouo455kqv699f8sica6ahksn6mkm7...@xxxxxxx>,
:> :> :fjmcc...@xxxxxxxxx says...
:> :> :> tankfixer <paul.carr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
:> :> :>
:> :> :> :In article <rblso4l297isile6ohi53cifebasthg...@xxxxxxx>,
:> :> :> :fjmcc...@xxxxxxxxx says...
:> :> :> :> tankfixer <paul.carr...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
:> :> :> :>
:> :> :> :> :In article <gmkfof$3v...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, raymond-oh...@xxxxxxxxxxx
:> :> :> :> :says...
:> :> :> :> :>
:> :> :> :> :> "Zombywoof" <Zomby-W...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
:> :> :> :> :>news:gmero49rs9hanf7qq8j2ms67pi0l7su8j2@xxxxxxxxxx
:> :> :> :> :> > On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 22:36:42 -0800, tankfixer <paul.carr....@xxxxxxxxx>
:> :> :> :> :> > wrote:
:> :> :> :> :> >
:> :> :> :> :> > <snip>
:> :> :> :> :> >>> pork is a bull*** term.
:> :> :> :> :> >>> its getting money back to the states.
:> :> :> :> :> >>
:> :> :> :> :> >>The moeny doesn't belong to the states. It belongs to the people.
:> :> :> :> :> >>Why not give it back to them ?
:> :> :> :> :> >>
:> :> :> :> :> > Because it just might empower them and we can't have that now can we?
:> :> :> :> :> >>
:> :> :> :> :>
:> :> :> :> :> the people would just squirrel it away no jobs would be created and we'd
:> :> :> :> :> still be in the same mess.
:> :> :> :> :
:> :> :> :> :Are you sure ?
:> :> :> :> :I'd like to replace my 1985 Nissan pickup..
:> :> :> :> :And would more than likely buy an US built truck.
:> :> :> :> :
:> :> :> :> :Not to mention the garden shed on the back end of the yard I'd like to
:> :> :> :> :build but won't for a while. Perhaps a year of more as things look right
:> :> :> :> :now.
:> :> :> :> :
:> :> :> :>
:> :> :> :> And things would still look the same if they dropped your taxes.
:> :> :> :> That's why tax reductions aren't great immediate economic stimulus.
:> :> :> :>
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> :I could do the projects now, if I wasn't forced to piss away my money to
:> :> :> :the clowns in DC.
:> :> :> :
:> :> :>
:> :> :> 'Could', perhaps, but would you?  Or would you do what so many other
:> :> :> Americans are doing and put off the expenditure because of concerns
:> :> :> about the future?
:> :> :
:> :> :I would.
:> :> :They need to be done and soon.
:> :> :As it is I will have to postpone them I am afraid.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Most people wouldn't.
:> :>
:> :> :
:> :> :>
:> :> :> THIS is why just having tax cuts isn't a good tactic in the current
:> :> :> circumstances.  It's too late for that to work.
:> :> :
:> :> :But since when is saving money a bad thing ?
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Since we find ourselves in our current circumstances.  
:> :>
:> :> Look at it like this.  Is it a problem that the banks are 'saving'
:> :> money and not lending it out?  Of course it is.
:> :>
:> :> Same thing with individuals.  We have a liquidity crisis going and
:> :> need cash moving through the economy to unlock it.  Saving, while a
:> :> good thing in a normal economy, is a bad thing in this one.
:> :>
:> :
:> :So I am supposed to be irresponsible just becasue everyone else is ?
:> :
:>
:> You don't read very well, do you?  Nobody said anything about what
:> you're "supposed" to do.  I merely pointed out the facts.  
:>
:> Your inability to come up with any better response than the preceding
:> non sequitur in an attempt to distract attention from the issue says
:> much about YOUR position on the matter.  Pull your head out and stop
:> thinking with your ideology.
:>
:> Also, the problem isn't that "everyone else is" 'irresponsible'.  It's
:> quite the reverse, AS I SAID IF ONLY YOU COULD READ.  The problem is
:> that everyone else is saving and putting off purchases, which makes it
:> harder for the liquidity crunch to break open.
:>
:> You asked, "Since when is saving money a bad thing?"  I told you.  If
:> you don't like our present reality, all I can suggest is that you
:> depart it.
:>
:> Tax cuts IN OUR CURRENT SITUATION are an idea that will NOT help the
:> present situation.
:
:Looking, if we are going to solve your current economic problems, we
:are going to need a tax cut, ...
:

Probably, but it's certainly not the first thing needed nor would it
do anything at all by itself.

:
:... specifically we need to make the Bush
:taxes cut permenent.
:

Not really.

I suppose you think doling out welfare checks in the form of tax
rebates, will create more wealth, but all it does is create more
welfare addicts. What we need to do is get money into the hands of
people who can creat productive jobs quickly. That is this guys who
own small bussiness as sole owners.


:
:Remember our problems were triggered ( triggered,
:not caused, since both side help cause it by building this economic
:Minefield) when the democrate were voted into office, and most people
:believed it ment a tax increase on the "rich", which in turn caused
:the "rich" to change their spending plans, which in turn slowed the
:economy and burst the housing bubble.
:

Hogwash!  Don't ask me to remember things that never happened.


Oh, now the post 9/11 economic expansion did not happen. Along with
it's 4% growth in GNP. Nor did the housing boom, nor the GAO over
stating the federal deficit. Maybe you should tell the people who
recorded the satistics for that period, I am sure they what t o know
about your new official history.

:
:What we need to do, to get the economy running back to the what it was
:before, is to first set up the taxes like they were before the 2006
:elections. Then if more addition are needed we can go from there.
:

How is the tax code different now than it was before the 2006
elections?

It has not, which was the problem that started the collapse. A lot of
people were expecting the Republicans to make Bush's tax cut permenant
before they expired. But when the Democrates came to power, thry
realized it would not happen. I know it was dum of them to bank on a
future change in the law, but people do such things all the time.

:
:I will point out two fact most people tend to forget.
:

I suspect people 'forget' them because they're not generally true.

:
:1) The effect of a tax changte is exponental, and small changes can
:have big effects. One have only look at the money flow chart to
:understand why.
:

But they are much more likely to have no effect at all unless they are
both large and seen as permanent.

Yes, the effect is proportional to size, the larger the base the
faster the grow occures, Whic is why that little cut being propose
won't have a great effect.

:
:2) Any effect tax changes have on the economy is proportional to the
:precentage of the money effected, not the number of people effected.
:While the Taxes increase will effect on a small number of "rich"
:people. the percentage of the economy with large increase in taxes is
:is quite large, and therefore the large drop in the economy.
:Simularly, undoing the tax increase will have a large effect in the
:opposite direction, expanding the economy.
:

Wrong both ways.

You may say no but history say yes.

:
:Another fact that might interest people is that while government spend
:might increase demand, it does not alway increase supply, which will
:of course raise prices, causing inflation, hurting those on fixed
:incomes, etc.
:

You're assuming that current demand matches current supply.  The
problem is that it doesn't.  That's why the economy is the current
mess it is.


It will still need seed money to restart those closed factories and
start production, To do that you need people will to invest in the US,
which with your current high tax rates, are harder to find.

:
:This in turn will cause the Fed Res to up interest rates
:( a knee jerk reaction that can't be stopped) which in turns will slow
:down the economy, undoing the desire effects of the increased
:spending.
:

We just had well over half a million people lose their jobs last
month.  I seriously doubt INCREASING interest rates are something we
need to worry about.

Not as long as the FEDs board of governers are all monetarist. Those
guys fear inflation far more than they fear unemployment. Look at the
seventies if you don't believe me.

:
:And of course there the fact that cutting taxes has a faster
:stimulaing effect that governemt programs. That because it causes
:changes prople to change actions sooner than the government can changs
:it spending (all those pesky law and regulation)
:

Exactly wrong.  Tax cuts, when they have an effect, typically don't
have a major effect until the money is in peoples' hands.  That takes
a while.  


But if the people have the money already in hand, as people like
myself and most small bussinessman do in they taxs accounts, then we
don't have to wait for the government to send us a check like those
who money are witheld for the IRS. And these small bussinessmen are
the people we want to have the money so thay cand spend and hire
people.

:
:Therefore I beleive we all would be better off if Congress cutting
:taxes first and wait to spend money later.
:

And I believe you are precisely wrong.  In the current economy, tax
cuts will have pretty much no effect at all because people will just
put them away because they are nervous about the future.  Then, when
things do eventually get better, several years hence, all that excess
saving will turn into liquidity and you'll have a real inflation
problem to fight.

Where did you learn your economics?
.

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