Re: Gasoline fire softens steel/causes portion of interchange to collapse

Fred J. McCall wrote:
adykes@xxxxxxxxx (Al Dykes) wrote:

:In article <po9d33htl2rhauheokctrc4o2094raf6p4@xxxxxxx>,
:Fred J. McCall <fmccall@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
:>eugene@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Eugene Griessel) wrote:
:>
:>:INVALID_SEE_SIG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (J.D. Baldwin) wrote:
:>:
:>:>
:>:>In the previous article, Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
:>:>wrote:
:>:>> But I guess jet fuel couldn't do that to the WTC...
:>:>
:>:>It's worth noting that gasoline burns hotter than jet fuel. (This is
:>:>not an endorsement of any ridiculous conspiracy theory.)
:>:
:>:Could you perhaps quantify that? I seem to recall that JP4 and
:>:gasoline burning in the atmosphere have a fairly small differential -
:>:but cannot lay my hands on the figures offhand.
:>
:>Gasoline is 536 degrees Fahrenheit. Kerosene (which approximates most
:>modern jet fuels) is 410 degrees Fahrenheit. JP-4 is a 50% gasoline
:>and kerosene blend and was done away with as being too dangerous a
:>long time ago. Both JP-8 and Jet A-1 are essentially pure kerosene
:>(JP-8 has something like 0.5% gasoline blended in).
:
:Are those temps listed for some standard pressure and containment?

One atmosphere with no containment.

:I've looked around and AFAICT, "burns at" isn't a hard and fast number
:and there is no clear upper limit for any specific fuel, as best as I
:can tell. Something burns at a temperature that is in equilibrium
:with conduction and convection losses and radiation returned from the
:enclosure, if any. Oxygen intake is a cooling effect.
:
:Given that this is s.m.n, I expect someone to chip in with :some better information, but those temps sound too low.

Suit yourself. Those are the combustion temperatures I found.



I think these are autoignition temperatures.

I suggest an article by my friend Dr. Vytenis Babrauskas

Cox and Chitty [6] measured similar plumes and obtained very similar results: a temperature of 900°C in the continuous flame region, and a temperature of around 340°C at the flame tips. The latter value does not appear to be a universal constant. Cox and Chitty later measured slightly higher heat release rate fires, and found a flame tip temperature of around 550°C. In a later paper [7], researchers from the same laboratory examined turbulent diffusion flames under slightly different conditions, and found peak values of 1150-1250°C for natural gas flames, which is rather higher than 900°C. The above results were from fires of circular or square fuel shape. Yuan and Cox [8] measured line-source type fires. They found a temperature of 898°C in the continuous flame region, and a flame tip temperature of around 340°C. This suggests that such results are not dependent on the shape of the fuel source.

In studying fires in a warehouse storage rack geometry, Ingason [9] found an average solid-flame temperature of 870°C. At the visible flame tips, the average temperature was 450°C, but the range was large, covering 300~600°C. In a related study, Ingason and de Ris [10] found typical flame tip temperatures of 400°C for burner flames of propane, propylene, and carbon monoxide fuels.

http://www.doctorfire.com/flametmp.html


.

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