Re: "War Is Peace" -- George Orwell -- 1984


hippo wrote:
> "Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote in message
>
> > In article hippo wrote:
>
> [.]
>
> >> Democracy is foreign to the region except perhaps in pre-historic times
> >> and
> >> perhaps in a few migrating tribes. The Prez never suggested it would be
> >> easy.
>
> > There's a difference between "not easy" and a half-century of
> > evolution, as was the case in the Maghreb.
>
> >> To paraphrase an Afghan woman quoted by a Western journalist after their
> >> election, 'It doesn't make too much difference who wins but I will always
> >> be
> >> able to say I once voted for who will lead my country'. The turnout in
> >> Iraq
> >> too is significant given the danger.
> >
> > I commend the bravery, truly. But a voter sayer "it doesn't make too
> > much difference who wins" doesn't necessarily understand the continuing
> > effect of her action. One cannot assume that participation in
> > democracy ends with the election, and "they" will take care of matters.
>
> >> There is a fatalism inherent to Islam and the society has been familial
> >> for
> >> as long as records survive. Inclusive Democracy empowers the individual
> >> and,
> >> finally, women. Together they may begin to prize the individual out of
> >> the
> >> trap imposed by both religion and culture. I too am not sanguine but you
> >> have to start somewhere. Turkey certainly was no democracy before Mustafa
> >> Kemal and there was no democratic tradition in the Ukraine outside of the
> >> early Swedish ruling stratum. -the Troll
> >
> > I have always considered Mustafa Kemal one of the great men of history,
> > but he also had the advantages of being of the people, already with
> > recognized status, and dealing with a largely homogeneous population.
> > While there may be Sunni and Shi'a politicians that would like to do to
> > each other what the Turks did to the Armenians, that's not acceptable.
>
> Democracy is budding in very strange places these days and against pretty
> staggering odds. There was no tradition of it in Russia and very little in
> Poland, the Baltic States, or the Balkans. How about India, South Korea, or
> Japan? It wasn't easy in the US in spite of centuries of British democratic
> tradition. They tried to make George Washington a king. The new democracies
> have examples to follow of extant ones which do work including even inside
> Iraq with the Kurds.
>
> The real argument is what Western foreign policy should be in the light of
> 9/11.
> 1) Support the status quo trying to tweak it here and there with diplomatic
> tweezers as we have been for half a century, hoping for the best?
> 2) Try to run down the bad guys hiding out within the borders of unfriendly
> regimes hoping our hit teams are not caught and put on trial in front of a
> bunch of Mullahs and hanged in the public square?
> 3) Count on the UN to make things right?
> 4) Sell out and get in line behind the French and Russians for a hand out?
>
> It's easy to be negative but if you think about it there was no alternative
> option. Just knocking off Saddam and his army, Al Qaida leaders, and the
> Taliban as a punishment or revenge doesn't leave anything positive behind.
> Bush and Blair have chosen the hardest route but IMO the best with the
> greatest possibility for permanent change in the region. Assad, nationalist
> Palestinians, Sunni Ba'athists, and Saudi and other fundamentalists are on
> the defensive. We keep them there or they win.
>
> If you have a better idea I'd like to hear it. -the Troll

I think a lot of the problems stem from the United States trying to do
everything by themselves, with some abeting by other English speaking
countries bus basically by themselves.

The first Gulf War was a simple case of the bad guy had taken over the
town and Glenn Ford or Henry Fonda instead of Gary Cooper is the
sheriff. Glenn gets the townspeople to back him up with their presence
if nothing else, the concept of a million armed men lined up against
you will give even the dimmest dictator pause. Cooper managed to
convince his wife and no one else. Think what that marriage was like in
the future.

We have to involve a lot more people, and cut the pace of our
operations down to the speed of one of the slower members of the convoy
(little naval content there) instead of racing on ahead and finding
ourselves alone in a town full of bad-tempered people who just want us
out.

I would guess if we sent the Paks, the Indians and the Turks into
wherever al Qaeda has their diplomatic operations, sat them down with
the aQ people and said "the Americans will leave in three months if you
stop bombing the roads and assassinating government officials." we
would get some action. Either a flat 'no' or an agreement. Once an
agreement is reached our troops are on the boat home ASAP. Declare a
victory after you get everybody out but get everybody out.

.

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