Re: Back to the V-22 turkey

Guy Alcala wrote: 
Kevin Brooks wrote:


"Vince" <firelaw@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:UpCdndMtvI0XUt7eRVn-1Q@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thomas Schoene wrote:

Vince Brannigan wrote:



The CSAR and Special operations requirements are simply not relevant
to  the Marine mission.



Except that these profiles are almost exactly the same profile that the
marines actually plan to execute in OMFTS.  And they aren't exactly new,
similar  profiles have been part of MEU(SOC) misison requirements for
years (for special ops read amphibious raid; for CSAR, read TRAP, but the
mission profiles are very similar)



Im sorry, they are not.  tehya re the reverse of the Marine mission.

CSAR is always a "smash and grab" activity you are not taking cargo in,
you are bringing it out.

As is the TRAP role, if you did not know. 


In an attempt to educate Vince so that he doesn't continue to make inane
statements that demonstrate his ignorance of the subject matter, TRAP stands for
Tactical Recovery of Aircraft and Personnel.  When the marines went into Bosnia
in a pair of CH-53Es to grab O'Grady, they had the mortar platoon (they'd
trained for the TRAP mission), corpsmen plus most of the MEU(SOC)'s senior
commanders on board (hey, how else are they going to get medals), to provide
ground security while they looked for/treated/transported O'Grady to the helo.
Turns out they didn't need it, because as soon as they landed, lowered the ramps
and started to unload, O'Grady passed them at the run going the other way.

For the notional differences between the CSAR and TRAP missions, see

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1995/rmd.htm



actaully Im aware of it

are you suggesting a V-22 can lift another V=22


Similarly special operations are limited by recovery ability.  You have to
go in, pick up your human cargo and remove it.


Really? There is also this strange concept known as the "ingress" portion of
the equation, which is a bit different from your described "egress" phase.
Special operations per se are not limited by "recovery ability"; most
involve moving troops into the assault area, and then later recovering them.
See Son Tay, Operation Eagle Claw, the various SOF missions flown in
Grenada, Panama, ODS, etc.



Having demonstrated the essential sameness of CSAR/TRAP, we can now move on to
determine whether amphibious raids and specops missions profiles are 'very
similar' (Kevin) or 'the reverse of the Marine mission' (Vince). Here they are,
for the MV-22 amphibious raid and the CV-22 specops missions, taken directly
from the MV/CV-22 ORD:

MV-22: Amphibious Pre-Assault/Raid Operations -- Execute a vertical takeoff with
a minimum of 18 (T)/24 (O) combat equipped Marines 

notice only 18 , not 24 18
not to mentions that these are specs designed to "back qualify the v-22

Why 18?  casue thats allthe turkey can lift


or an internally carried
vehicle with a crew of three combat equipped marines, 

Weighing how much? and including the necessary ramps?


from an air capable ship 
and Hover Out of Ground Effect (HOGE) at sea level/103 deg. F/39.44 deg. C in no
wind conditions at 95% Takeoff Rated Power (TRP). Transition to forward flight
and transit at best cruise airspeed at or below 500 feet AGL for 200 nautical
miles (nm) to a confined area landing zone (CAL) at 3000 feet Mean Sea Level
(MSL) 91.5 deg. F/33.05 deg. C.  Transition to and HOGE at 95% TRP, in no wind
conditions, execute a vertical landing and discharge the payload.  Then execute
a vertical takeoff, transition to forward flight, clearing a 50 foot obstacle
within 100 feet horizontally, and transit at best cruise airspeed at or below
500 feet AGL to return to the ship and land. The flight profile must be
completed without refueling, and must include sufficient fuel to loiter in the
vicinity of the CAL for 30 minutes after delivery of the payload. The loiter
fuel requirement is in addition to the OPNAVINST 3710.7 reserve fuel
requirement.


remember the 18 keep that in mind when they claim 24

CV-22: Long Range Special Operations -- The JMVX must be capable of transporting
18 mission equipped troops (4770 lb/2,272kg) (Threshhold)/24troops (6,360
lb/2,885 kg) (Objective) 500nm (Threshold)/750 nm (Objective), off-load the
troops from a 70 foot HOGE in 1 minute, and return 500 nm (T)/750 nm (O).  The
transition from HOGE to forward flight must clear a 50 foot obstacle within 100
feet horizontally.  The aircraft must be capable of flying this mission under
Tropical Day conditions, except for the takeoff and landing which shall be
performed at sea level, 88 deg.F/28 deg. C,and the mid-point hover which shall
beat3,900feet, 82 deg. F/28 deg. C. Outbound cruise shall be restricted to no
greater than 10,000 feet pressure altitude (PA).the final250 nautical miles
prior to the mid-point shall beflown in the terrain following/terrain avoidance
mode starting at 300 feet PA and increasing 144 feet per 10 nautical miles
flown.  The first 250 nm of the return flight shall also be flown in the terrain
following/terrain avoidance mode starting at 3,900 feet and decreasing 144 feet
per10 nm flown.  Cruise portions of the mission shall be flown at constant
airspeeds.  Fuel capacity must permit arrival over destination with enough
usable fuel to increase the total planned time between refueling points by 10%
or 20 minutes at Best Endurance Velocity (VBE) at 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is
greater.



Again, back qualified. 18 was the SOP number when did the marines go to 18? When they realized the golden tureky couldn'carry 24

In both cases the Osprey's trivial lift capacity is less important.  it
shows up at the recovery site having burned several tons of fuel.  this
gives it the extra lift needed to do the recovery.


And yet the USAF expects to be using it to transport the assault elements
into the objective area...strange, huh?



And the Marines likewise. It seems the Osprey's trivial lift capability is
considered adequate for their needs,



why 18 why not the cabin capcity of 24, oh yes, it cant lift the fuel.

while the CH-46E's far more trivial lift 
capability no longer is.  For missions where it isn't adequate they have the
CH-53E (later X) and its eventual replacement, which may well be a quad
tiltrotor.


I'm also still waiting for any proof that the Osprey has carried slung
military cargo in horizontal flight at full speed



And you never will, because sling loads aren't carried at maximum speed.
This isn't unique to Osprey; in helos you're lucky to manage 60 knots
with a sling load.


I agree, but it points out that all the claims for high speed for the
osprey do not apply if you need anthing that cant go in the tiny cabin


In the SOF role, the operators apparently generally prefer small pieces of
equipment of the sort that should readily fit inside the cabin. And the USMC
is apparently thinking along the same lines for many of the roles that it
forsees for the Osprey. Sorry you can't see yur way to admitting that fact.



Oh, and the 'tiny cabin' is essentially the same size as the CH-46's which it's
replacing.


OFCS compare it to camels and llama youlll get better numbers
How many HP on a CH=46  the fat tureky takes  whole lot more power

Really, Vince, you're an intelligent person, and yet you are willing to make the
most ridiculous 'factual' claims in public, claims which can be easily shown to
be false by very cursory research.  What kind of grade would you give a student
who handed in such shoddy work?  Or would you give him/her a good grade because
even though they have all the facts wrong, they're on the side of the righteous
('righteous' being defined as those who believe as you do)?  If this were a
peer-review committee, your articles would never be published.  Please try and
exercise some academic rigor in future, because it's getting tiresome pointing
out all the erroneous claims you make on the most basic details, claims
apparently based on nothing more solid than emotion (clearly, for most of them
little or no thought was involved).

Guy

Becsue I owe it to the late Al Gessow to keep pointing out that thsi piece of junk is a fat tureky

Vince
.