Re: [OT] Big 3 Bailout

Morris Dovey wrote:
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
<SNIP>

Do I actually hear Tim Daneliuk advocating /for/ force and coersion? You
can't have it both ways.

Uh, yes I can. *Initiating* force is always wrong. Fraud is always
wrong. In the case of minor children, parents are by default presumed
to be the proper caretakers. When they fail to see to their children's
education, this is an initiation of at least fraud, and arguably
force, because they are condemning their children to fail. The
children - as minors - are legally presumed to be incapable of caring
for themselves and thus the state does have the right to interdict on
their behalf, no different than a policeman arresting someone trying
to break into your house.

As far as "making" teacher earn the respect of parents, I mean this
in a noncoerive way - there should be a marketplace for schools
and teachers as there is anything else. Parents would choose from
that pool based on their perception of the fitness of the school/teacher,
the amount they were willing to pay for it, and how that school
environment mapped to their personal values and ambitions for their
child.

I don't think you'll achieve much traction pushing this issue - not
because I have anything against private education, but because I don't
see any practical means of implementation due to cost.

In a most fortunate twist of fate (I lived in a country with /no/ high
schools, and my stepfather's employer paid for dependents' education at
any accredited boarding school), I got to make my own choice of private
schools (subject to parental veto for cause) high school. My first two
choices (ACS in Beirut and a boarding school in England) were vetoed for
what seemed good reasons, and my third choice was where I went.

I dug around to find a web page with some cost info and came up with:

http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/school_ov/school_id/201

and if you scroll down to "Finances" you'll get the same reality check I
just did. Education at retail is bloody awful expensive!

Hang on a second here. Yes, education is expensive. Just how is
it cheaper if it is public? I'd argue that public education - if the
real and complete costs are tallied - is *more* expensive than
private because there is no market feedback to make it efficient.
By some estimates, the US now spends more per student, inflation
adjusted, than at any time since education went public, and the results
are declining on average. This is not a money problem.


[ I think it's worth every penny for kids whose parents can afford it -
and if you watch the video (at the top of the page) you can see a bit of
why I hold that opinion - what they present is real and true. ]

I had to go drink a cup of coffee and pause to unload the emotional
baggage. Back at the keyboard, I see all of the things you've listed as
/desirable/ - and from what you've told about yourself, I infer that you
don't consider them /undesirable/.

They are desireable. They are not political rights. They are things
each individual and/or family ought to achieve or earn in their own
right. The sole exception is safety. The state has some role to
play in defending the borders, interdicting in matters of fraud, force,
and threat, and generally maintaining the *framework* of a civil
society. This does not, however, include using the coercion of the state
to inflict its versions of healthcare, education, et al.

Yabbut - in a democracy "rights" are what the people decide they are,
whether they make sense or seem appropriate to you or not. By choosing
to live in a democracy we accept a social contract to live by the rules
chosen by the majority. One of the good things about our democracy is
that we've incorporated mechanisms to change those rules whenever a
majority so elects.

Well again, hang on:

1) The "rights" everyone is trying to vote themselves are not
under the purview of the Federal government because it has
no enumerated power to grant such gifts. To legally elect
themselves these freebies, the Sheeple ought to change the
Constitution. They won't, moochers are never that honest.

2) Some rights - the ones explicated in our Constitution - are
innate and freely distributed to all. My right to free speech
does not diminish your similar right. But the "rights" people
are inventing for themselves are not equally distributed.
They are "rights" granted to some citizens at the expense
of others. This is not a honest theory of rights, its just
stealing under mob rule masquerading as a "right".


You /can/ effect the changes you want, but first you'll need to build
the necessary consensus...

Today's consensus is mooching. This is why I say we are in an
inexorable slide to the loss of liberty and preeminence in the world.


Within the context of a democracy, each of those things can be
considered goals worth pursuing, and AFAICT your reservations have more
to do with /how/ to best attain those benefits for the greatest number
of participants.

My reservation has to do with the fact that the unwashed masses are
willing to give away their liberty and freedom merely upon the promise
of some politician that what they want will be given them by government.

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither."
Franklin

These goals - very much worth pursuing - belong in private life, not
as chits to buy votes.

Since you've referenced one of my favorite Ben Franklin quotes, let's
also quote from the document under discussion when he said those words:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal,..."

I welcome you to the land of the unwashed masses (est. July 4, 1776)

All men are *created* equal, but none of the Framers held that they
actually *were* equal. They merely articulated a baseline set of
inherent rights all citizens ought to enjoy and wrote a legal framework
so that all citizens would be "equal" before the law, under the law,
and from the law. The "equality" in question was not about the
citizen, it was that the government ought to be "equal" in its
behavior.


As with software, there's always more than one way to skin a cat. If you
don't like the way the system runs, it's nearly always possible to
re-design for improvements - and that improvements almost always come
from disaffected users who /haven't/ given up. The old name for
disaffected users who /have/ given up (or never made a real effort) was
"lusers". I encourage you to not join that community.

You or I or anyone else that still values freedom are in a declining
minority. The demographics here are overwhelming. The last election
alone demonstrates that people will buy almost anything at face value
from a politician promising them "free" stuff, "change", and all the
rest of goo that came from our soon-to-be communist-in-chief. The
system cannot be redesigned when a majority of the participants
are happy to watch it fail - fiddling on the deck of the Titanic
as it were.

As you already know, our opinions differ on all of the above except that
I can agree that "free stuff" always carries a price tag.

When 5% of the working population pay the
overwhelming proportion of Federal taxes in the US, but some 40% pay
little- or no taxes but can vote (and thus appoint the next President)
there is no resolution.

So? How about making a serious proposal for tax reform you consider more
reasonable? Personally, I'd prefer a flat rate without exemptions
coupled with hard limits on government spending, structured so that
after a period of a century or two, government could be fully endowed
and further taxation prohibited. :)

Me too. It will never happen.

Never is a /very/ long time... :)

Never in time to make a difference to you or me, or likely our children.
Our grandchildren will probably have to learn Mandarin.


The next great superpower will be China, with
India as an arguable close second. They will not be liberal
democracies as we understand the term. The virtues of Western
civilization - a civilization that did more to free mankind in less
time than any other institution in recorded human history - are nearly
dead or on their deathbed. These are not just the rambling of someone
of "a certain age". They are the observations of someone who has lived
in 3 countries and traveled to many more over 5 decades and has seen
the difference. The US - once a light for freedom and opportunity -
has become a ghetto for political correctness, government overreach,
and whining demands for imaginary "rights." The US is not dying from
external attack. It has committed suicide...

I've only lived in two countries, although I've traveled to a reasonable
number of others over /six/ decades. Interestingly, I've always found
much to admire wherever I traveled. Americans do indeed have much to be
proud of, but we're not done learning from others - and it's been said
that our greatest strengths are our ability and willingness to re-invent
ourselves.

But that latter thing is exactly what is missing. The citizenry
hardly wants to "re-invent" the culture or the nation. It is too
busy abdicating itself to the leviathan of the state.

Methinks it's too early to tell - let's see how it plays out. One or the
other of us (or possibly both) may be surprised.




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Tim Daneliuk tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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