Re: A couple of Marks observations

On Apr 30, 6:13 am, "Swingman" <k...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.

Nor do I. And as noted, maybe it was a bad day for him.

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in
your story. :)

I do have a good idea, and I have never liked "those kinds of guys".
One thing I learned over nearly 35 years of getting paid as a
professional woodworker is this: No matter how good you are, there is
always someone better.

With so many years in the trades, and with so many of them being self
employed (27.... crap!) I have done a great deal of carpentry work.
One thing I learned really well after a few years in the trades was a
proper perspective on the endless arena of woodworking. I have
learned that just because you can do one or two (or three) thing well,
it doesn't mean you are a master at all aspects.

In the bigger picture, I spent time working for a financial
institution managing their construction portfolio. So if a "Marks"
comes to me when I was in banking and cannot correctly calculate the
compounding per diem interest or APR on a floating rate interim loan
(which as you know is typical for most aspects of construction
financing), should I have belittled him?

I had those folks come in all the time with their HP12c calculators
and try like hell to figure out what their financing was costing them
when they had a building principal as project went on. When I saw
their calculations (which by the way, were NEVER right) I didn't make
them ashamed of their efforts.

The guys that went to meet Marks are not, were not, and don't intend
to be professionals. If they were, it would have been a totally
different situation. Personally, I keep my mouth shut as to what I
think of most people's work, unless they are working for me, or with
me. On my dime, I try to be as constructive as possible, as quick to
praise as I am to criticize, but the guys on the job ARE
professionals, and a thicker hide is needed when certain expectations
of quality are expected simply because they are pros.

I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_ to
make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's
was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly
won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how
wonderful their bad song/part is.

If they are asking you pointedly for your opinion as one professional
musician to another, you shouldn't fudge too much. I think you should
tell them the truth, and as unvarnished as possible without destroying
them. I have had many a woodworking compatriot strike out on their
own after doing a couple of nice jobs, only to find that one of the
real talents of being a professional woodworker is to be able to pay
one's bills.

AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
mention doing what you're paid to do.

That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or
destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for
improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most sought
after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so crushed
as to no longer be able to perform.

Sound familiar?

Yes it does. But we are talking about two different things. You are
writing about interfacing as one professional to another (or maybe to
an aspiring professional). I have had many a candid talk with fellow
professionals about different aspects of our own work, and I have no
problem admitting my own shortcomings in certain aspects of
woodworking.

For example, if I cut a roof, I can spend an extra week cutting in
valley rafters, jacks and compound cut soldier walls for tile. I can
get it done, but it is painful. I had a guy that worked for me for
years that loved to cut in roofs and took a lot of pride in cutting in
full hip roofs. He was easily 3-4 times faster than me. But, if we
needed to modify a or make a cabinet, he was totally lost.

Oversize crown molding was a mystery greater than Stonehenge to that
guy, and while I truly admired his skills at the beautiful hip roofs
he would cut (there was almost no cutting the sheathing to compensate
for an off cut, ever) he thought I was the better carpenter because I
could build/rebuild cabinets and build doors and frames from
scratch. We tried to help each other along in our deficiencies, but
actually had little luck. But that was one pro to another, done with
respect for one another's talents. No harm, no foul. We had been
around the block enough times to realize you can't excel at all
aspects of woodworking.

Marks' visit was a one time, few hour visit where he was facing a
serious case of leg rash from hero worship at best. He was not there
to instruct, critique, or judge projects. He was there to be the guy
on TV. If his audience had been students or fellow professionals,
then I probably wouldn't have cared. Most "artists" seem to be
arrogant insecure pricks, and poor behavior seems to be a hallmark of
accomplishment these days. I am not saying that describes Marks.

A revisit:

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly >artistic on a
professional level, you have no idea how critical they can >be of other's of
the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed >by the tiniest
criticism of their own efforts

A good observation. But upon reflection it also extends to the psuedo
artists as well. I no longer participate in our local woodturning
club due to the unbridled snobbery those in the club show to each
other. I think the club should be an open door for all to participate
on all levels. Everyone should be encouraged to have fun and try
different things, no matter the success or failure.

It isn't that way though, as many of the guys in the club have been
"serious turners" for as much as five years! Say it ain't so! And by
the time they jangle their memory a little, add in a high school
semester of shop and watching Dave Hout on DIY, they can easily claim
ten years. So they have to be experts, right?

A grand lesson in humility was learned by them (too bad it didn't
stick) when we had a fantastic turner come in for a demo a couple of
years ago. He looked at some of the work on a table the guys had
brought for "judging" between themselves. He thought he was there to
"critique" not pick the best piece. So, instead of someone getting
bragging rights for a job well done, it went completely the other way.

He didn't want to know at first who did what. So he would hold up the
piece and say things like "I'm not sure what he was going for here, so
maybe someone should pipe in and tell me what they were trying to do",
or " I assume this was done on purpose ?!? ". One of our red faced
artists had to own up to their own work, and take the criticism. It
was done with some grace and tact, but the unvarnished truth was too
harsh for many.

Their mutual admiration society took a real hard hit, and as you
observed, the haughtiest of the artists were the most severely
wounded. They were OK the next meeting, but then in subsequent
meetings the decided they had been treated unfairly and that person
wouldn't be asked back. To me, he was a breath of fresh air.

I don't know when an "artist" becomes and "artist" but I hope I don't
ever become one. Seems too hard.

OK.... this time I mean it. Off the box.

Robert


.

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