Re: Confused over Womble output options

"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


"Netmask" <netmask56NOSPAM@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:2_5_i.11771$CN4.8690@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Terry Pinnell" <terrypin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:klggj3dhbd4ckd8nme7unh3oudcrjnpeqk@xxxxxxxxxx
"Netmask" <netmask56NOSPAM@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Terry Pinnell" wrote

I'd much appreciate it if you could stick with me on this a bit longer
please. I'm still unable to get the encoding result I expect.

Could you try the sample AVI file that I've uploaded please (under 2
seconds, 26MB).
http://www.speedyshare.com/617700187.html

In case it helps, its history is:

- I made it in a program called Memory-Map with the program's own
video-making feature. That produced a very large uncompressed file.
Memory-Map's Help says:
"The resulting video file is uncompressed, so it is too large for most
purposes. Use Microsoft Movie Maker (bundled with Windows XP) or
another video file editing package, to format the video to the size
and bit-rate you need."

- I extracted this small test file from the original uncompressed file
in VirtualDub.

The original looks fine when I play it in a variety of programs.
Obviously the photo scenery itself is of limited quality, but it's
acceptable for my purposes. The text at the bottom is sharp. In
particular, the logo 'Memory-Map' is readable.

But the various MPEG conversions I've produced so far with Womble are
much poorer. 'Memory-Map' is not readable. And some of my results are
distorted from the original 4:3 AR.

Before I try other conversion tools I want discover what I'm doing
wrongly in Womble.

BTW, I note that the playback of the AVI file in Womble's Input
Monitor looks fine, but the playback in the Output is poor. Why is
that? Shouldn't they be identical (if the input is unedited)?

My aim is to get an MPG file which

1) I can upload for a discussion I'm having in one of the map/walking
groups.

2) I can include in a DVD in my usual PAL 16:9 format.

Any help achieving this (these?) would be much appreciated please.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK


Terry this is my conversion using Womble - first selected the PAL DVD
template, then saved the file name and then 'Start'
http://www.speedyshare.com/418517508.html


Thanks both, much appreciate your taking the trouble.

First, I now get an identical file to yours, Netmask, when I use the
DVD PAL template in Womble.

Now, I'm learning a lot from this exercise. For a start, it's
interesting that both of you chose a DVD encoding. I assume that's
because you believe that will allow me to meet my aim? IOW, encoding
the original 640 x 480 AVI to MPEG-2 so that others who download it
will view it undistorted at an AR of 1.33. Part of my confusion was
that I wasn't sure whether it *should* be set to DVD, for that
objective, so I was customising and getting it wrong.

However, I'm still not sure a DVD encoding *does* achieve that. I've
viewed both of your files in 9 different programs, and get similar
results to those I was getting myself. I've shown the results below,
by listing the 18 screenshots I took. I hope they will be clear from
the filenaming method I've used. Note that the actual *dimensions* of
the screenshots are irrelevant, and inconsistent, as I made them in
various ways depending on the player. It's the aspect ratios that are
important.

This first group of 7 players all showed the same pattern: Ken's
MPEG-2 displayed the original 4:3 (1.33) image at an AR of about 1.3,
while Netmask's (and my identical file) was just over 1.5. You might
want to check a few of these in your own players.

BS Player
BSP-Ken-750x574=1.3.jpg
BSP-Netmask-673x446=1.5.jpg

IrfanView
IV-Ken-527x405=1.3.jpg
IV-Netmask-610x406=1.5.jpg

MediaPlayer 2
MP2-Ken-529x407=1.3.jpg
MP2-Netmask-607x405=1.5.jpg

NeroShowTime
NS-Ken-750x576=1.3.jpg
NS-Netmask-863x576=1.5.jpg

PowerDVD
PDVD-Ken-563x432=1.3.jpg
PDVD-Netmask-648x431=1.5.jpg

Windows Media Player 10
WMP10-Ken-586x452=1.3.jpg
WMP10-Netmask-543x363=1.5.jpg

---------

These 2 players displayed differently: Ken = 0.92, Netmask = 1.05
(both about 70% the above ratios), presumably due to some different
default view setting that I didn't discover.

MediaPlayer Classic
MPC-Ken-527x573=0.92.jpg
MPC-Netmask-607x576=1.05.jpg

KM Player
KMP-Ken-528x576=0.92.jpg
KMP-Netmask-607x576=1.05.jpg

---------
I included this one as Ken made his MPG in a similar program.

TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress (Cut Edit view)
TMPGX-Ken-493x370=1.33.jpg <--- The only one with exactly 4:3 AR,
TMPGX-Netmask-567x373=1.5.jpg

====================

I opened both files in GSpot and the only difference I could find in
the sections 'Video Information' and 'Aspect Ratio Related' was that
Netmasks (and mine) had a line 'Top Frame First', while Ken's had
'Bottom Frame First', whatever they mean!


I think you have that backwards Netmask's is BFF and
mine is TFF.


So, although I'm sure it will become glaringly obvious, right now I
can't see why the two files display differently.

More important, I remain puzzled why none of the players actually
displays an AR of 1.33? Ken's is very close at 1.30/1.31, but
Netmask's and mine are significantly distorted. In this particular
case it doesn't matter much, but I'd still like perfection!

So the question seems to be whether to find some way of setting up the
'popular' players (like WMP10, MPC, MP2) so that they *do* display
correctly, or encode the AVI differently in the first place.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK



Terry I have uploaded 2 more files - the first I used Womble Template for
NTSC DVD and the second file called TestSpecial I used another program
altogether in a somewhat unconventional way. Let me know how they look and
I'll post all the details. BTW maybe the difference between ours and Ken's
is - we are both in PAL jurisdiction and I think Ken is in North America
so maybe its a PAL - NTSC thing? and 680 x 480 could be confused
incorrectly as being NTSC??? ie in Womble when you load your avi file in
it assumes mpeg1 and 29.97fps as the logical output...

http://www.speedyshare.com/668252311.html


Actually mine was made as a 4:3 image inside a 16:9
image, to maintain the aspect ratio and still provide for
the 16:9 DVD format Terry mentioned as one of his
objectives. It was made using a PAL DVD template
and shows as PAL in GSpot. I am in NTSC land but
most of the tools I use have the ability to create PAL
formatted video.

I used the DVD format as that was the largest format
Terry mentioned, and you can always compress a larger
image to a smaller one with less impact than trying to do
it the other way around.

Luck;
Ken


Thanks a bunch Ken. I'm getting closer!

After much work late last night I'm personally coming to the
conclusion that it's better to customise my settings in Womble. IOW,
specify 640 x 480, rather than choosing the 720x576 DVD template.
While that presumably means that my secondary objective (of including
such MPGs in a DVD later) won't be met simultaneously, my experiments
show the result gets played properly in all my players.

I've uploaded the result of encoding Test640x480.avi as
Test640x480-CustomNotDVD.MPG:
http://www.speedyshare.com/608983664.html

(Netmask: In Womble I specified it as 640 x 480, MPEG-2, 25 fps, CBR =
8000, PAR = 1.00)

Working down my list of players, these are the ARs it displayed on
opening:

MediaPlayerClassic (my current MPG association): 1.33
BS Player: 1.33
IrfanView: 1.33
KM Player: 1.33
MediaPlayer2: 1.33
NeroShowTime: 1.33
PowerDVD: 1.33
VLC (but difficulty getting it to play): 1.33
WMP10: 1.33

Happily all are now undistorted ;-)

Do you both agree that seems the best approach please?

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Confused over Womble output options
    ... I note that the playback of the AVI file in Womble's Input ... I can upload for a discussion I'm having in one of the map/walking ... Terry this is my conversion using Womble - first selected the PAL DVD ... various ways depending on the player. ...
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  • Re: Confused over Womble output options
    ... I'm still unable to get the encoding result I expect. ... I note that the playback of the AVI file in Womble's Input ... Terry this is my conversion using Womble - first selected the PAL DVD ... various ways depending on the player. ...
    (rec.video.desktop)
  • Re: Confused over Womble output options
    ... But the various MPEG conversions I've produced so far with Womble are ... I note that the playback of the AVI file in Womble's Input ... Terry this is my conversion using Womble - first selected the PAL DVD ... various ways depending on the player. ...
    (rec.video.desktop)
  • Re: Confused over Womble output options
    ... I'm still unable to get the encoding result I expect. ... I note that the playback of the AVI file in Womble's Input ... Terry this is my conversion using Womble - first selected the PAL DVD ... various ways depending on the player. ...
    (rec.video.desktop)
  • Re: Confused over Womble output options
    ... I'm still unable to get the encoding result I expect. ... I note that the playback of the AVI file in Womble's Input ... Terry this is my conversion using Womble - first selected the PAL DVD ... various ways depending on the player. ...
    (rec.video.desktop)
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