Re: SCW's legacy

Charles wrote:
> On 19 Jul 2005 06:48:23 -0700, "Richard Bridgman" <rhb919@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> >Charles wrote:
> >[snip]
> >> >Firstly, all four perpetrators were British. Three of the four were
> >> >born and had lived all their lives in Britain. One was a Briton born
> >> >in Jamaica. So it's incorrect to call them "four immigrants".
> >>
> >> That is naive or obtuse!
> >
> >Why? What are you really saying? I have followed this ongoing argument
> >of yours and I must say you appear to be obfuscating. You have never
> >really expanded on your original comment, although you have certainly
> >sought to defend it.
>
> Then you haven't been "following" very attentively Richard.
>
> >I can only assume you are saying immigration is
> >the root cause - or at the very least a strong contributing factor,
>
> It is certainly safe to "assume" that assumption.
>
> >and
> >I must further assume you are trying to say that if the UK refused
> >entry to anyone (i don't know...are you saying *anyone* or just
> >Muslims?) this attack would never have happened.
>
> I said quite clearly:
>
> "The harsh fact is that immigration *is* a problem and needs to be
> addressed with some urgency. Whether the immigrant is a new asylum
> seeker or the product of successive generations from the early
> immigrations of the 1950's, the problem and the solution appears to be
> to do with assimilation and integration.
>
> All immigrants must be made to accept the following before they are
> allowed leave to stay:
>
> 1. The rule of secular law.
>
> 2. The sovereignty of parliamentary democracy.
>
> 3. Loyalty to the nation of the United Kingdom.
>
> 4. The separation of church and state.
>
> 5. The authority of the Crown (as opposed to monarchy).
>
> 6. The requirement to be competent in the English language.

How very strange! How would these criteria be enforced, and by what
right would they be imposed? The only requirement should, IMO, be
implied understanding that the immigrant abides by the laws of the
country. That's it, nothing else. If they break the law, then just like
every other citizen they will be subject to arrest and due process.

> And having complied with all that, by leading by example all
> succeeding generations

How on earth would that be enforced? Would the sins of the sons be
visited on the fathers? Once a person is 18 years old, they are
responsible for their own actions.

> This means not simply paying lip service for the purpose of
> expediency, but wanting to become British citizens without ulterior
> motives. It certainly does not mean coming to Britain to remain aloof
> and outside the mainstream population, and attempting to undermine
> Britain's traditional culture,

Cultures and traditions change, like it or not. In a few generations
we'll have a new "traditional culture"...one influenced by the large
number of immigrants.

> with the intention of imposing Sharia law.

Their "intentions" are their own. There are some people who would like
to impose a fascist, right wing regime (National Front, etc.). There
are those who would prefer total anarchy. It's called freedom of
speech.

> This does not mean giving up cultural or religious inclinations, but
> rather accepting them as subservient to the reality of being British
> first, and all that proudly stands for. Those cultural and religious
> differences can and do make a rich contribution to our multi-cultural
> nation, but they should not be prioritised above citizenship.

That's up to the individual citizen to decide. "Being British" can mean
having a Pakistani heritage for example. You say the differences make a
"rich contribution" whilst at the same time you seem to be saying these
differences should be curbed - I don't know how or where you would draw
the line, and in fact I don't think a line should be drawn.

> >
> >If I'm wrong, I apologise, but assuming i'm not your point of view is
> >misguided, trite, racist, illogical, unhelpful and quite frankly
> >bizarre.
>
> Then you Sir, are quite clearly out of step with the vast majority of
> the UK population.

You may well be right.

> You must allow people to express their views, without the necessity of
> responding to them with the hackneyed responses of the politically
> correct, who seek to deny us our freedom of speech, that would allow
> us to have only one point of view, and who have the tendency to label
> people racists etc, if we dare to have 'other' opinions on matters
> that are important to us all.

Charles, that is ridiculous and I suspect you know it. I have in no way
implied you should *not* express your view, I'm merely debating them.
My responses are neither "hackneyed" nor "politically correct". It
seems to me it is you who are suggesting how people should act, how
they should conduct themselves, and prescribing a notion of citizenship
for them to abide by.

> By so doing you are merely acting out the role of "misguided, trite,
> racist, illogical, unhelpful and quite frankly bizarre" sort of person
> that you are so quick to label other people.

I stand by those descriptions, although I used them to refer to your
opinions. You have used them to refer to me as a person. Who's labeling
who, Charles?

> What you haven't done is offer your own views of how we should respond
> to the London bombings, and the quite clear association between that
> horror and Islam! Are you denying the threat and from where it comes.

Very well, here you go: Given the attacks are a crime, the proper
authorities should seek out those responsible. Furthermore, those
promoting or conspiring to commit other such crimes should be similarly
pursued. As to the Islam issue, I believe Western governments need to
engage with the Arab world on a much less superficial level. We need to
address the issues affecting ordinary Muslims, such as poverty,
disenfranchisement; and we need to pressure those oppressive regimes
(Saudi Arabia as just one example) to introduce reforms designed to
improve the outlook for their citizens. I believe problems experienced
by young Muslims in many countries - problems caused and exacerbated by
their own governments - find an outlet in the current anti-Western
fervor. Not surprising really when we prop-up those same regimes in the
interest of money. Oh and invading Iraq, and supporting Israels
occupation of Palestine doesn't help either. So that's just a brief
smattering of some of my opinions on the matter...I could go on, but
we're supposed to be talking about Rugby.

> If you do have any opinions, which I doubt,

A ridiculous statement, even for you. I missed that when I read your
post the 1st time. If I had seen it I wouldn't have bothered replying
to you.

> you will find that
> whatever they are, some smart know-all will tear them up for arse
> paper should you care to venture them!!

Perhaps. Free speech. That's the beauty of usenet.

Richard Bridgman

.

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