Re: USC at Grand Challenge

In article <48747679$0$17207$742ec2ed@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
KC <kc_news@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

bookie wrote:
On Jul 8, 12:40 am, KC <kc_n...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Mike Sullivan wrote:
It's an interesting postscript to a discussion some of us here in the US
had over the make up of University of Southern California's rowing team
this year.
USC showed up at the San Diego Crew Classic with a boatload of
Estonian national teamers who did not make qualifications to go to Oly
games. Apparently there were eligibility issues, to put it mildly, I
don't
think the Estonians were registered full time students, but were taking
extension classes, no 'admissions' necessary.
They ended up no longer racing in any college races I know of,
raced in the Open category I think at the Classic.
Rules within an institution for joining a competitive 'club' often will
allow faculty, staff, other affiliates to participate, but regatta rules
in
the
US will generally prohibit anybody but full time undergrad students
following a normal program of study.
There was nothing about the Grand Challenge entry by USC that
was cheating or untoward, indeed it's a great opportunity to race
for the Estonian rowers, and a couple USC students. I have no doubt
that some wealthy USC alum funded the athletes to come to the US
and row, and funded their trip to Henley. USC Rowing got royally
screwed by Title IX enforcement at that institution, kicked out of the
boathouse they built, and boats sold in the mid 1990s.
However honest it may be to race these athletes in the Grand
Challenge Cup, I find it dishonest to be promoted the way they
do in their website:
http://www.trojannavy.com/latest_news/08henleytrojans.html
What's annoying was this passage:
Only two American universities have succeeded in winning the Grand
Challenge
Cup in the last half-century. Harvard University did it in 1959 and 1985
whilst the University of Washington won in 1977.
"The Grand Challenge Cup at Henley Royal Regatta is really the America's
Cup
of rowing," said USC Head Coach Gene Kininmonth. "A successful syndicate
requires a lot of funding but a win brings with it a certain cachet. We
are
delighted to be in a position to put forth a serious challenge."
The Harvard and Washington crews that won the Grands were
remarkable crews that occupy a special place in rowing history
because of this accomplishment. The top American college crews
typically entered the Grands years ago, but the strength of the
national programs that came in plus the fall off in numbers of entries
had them choose to go to the Ladies in the last dozen years.
USC is not a collegiate crew. They don't go to school there, and
shouldn't be competing as USC.
They could well have competed as Trojan Navy, or some other
locally identifying entity, but to pretend to be a collegiate crew is
wrong.
I'm torn. I agree with you on 99% of what you say. I found it really
annoying that the USC mens crew claimed victory at the SDCC (even in the
club/open event), and over UCLA (which while also a club team, is more
of a proper university team) this year.

However, when it comes to the Henley, how is the Trojan Navy's
association with USC any different than the Oxbridge Blue Boats'
association with those universities? I've stated here before what I
think of Oxford and Cambridge Blue crews calling themselves anything
even close to a University team - it's a joke. But if they can do it,
why can't an American university do it on British soil? No harm, no
foul. I'm pretty sure that one of the recent (last 15 years) times OCC
took a boat to Henley they boated one or more guys who had been
ineligible to finish the season and who did not race in the boat at
WIRA. Is that any different?

I do think the Trojan Navy's web site is misleading though.

-KC- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

sorry but i am really confused; what is wrong with the oxford and
cambridge blue boats (and I am assuming you are only referring to the
mens heavyweight crews here and not the other crews) calling
themselves university crews? they are university crews made up
entirely of full time students, not all undergraduate students of
course, but all of them have to be full time students of the
university and full members of a college to be eligible for either
CUBC or OUBC, no exceptions, so what is your problem? or is that they
are bloody good at what they do and train very hard to make themselves
even better which annoys you?

please clarify...

bookie

They are "full time" students in name only. They are full time
professional athletes. Guns for hire, many of whom never bother to
finish their studies at the University once they are done with the boat
race or whatever rowing events they are interested in.

To be clear, I have no "problem" with their skill or prowess as rowing
crews. I just feel it's a stretch to call them a university sports
team. They row for the university, but they are hardly full time
students. The two blue crews are often two of the best crews in the
world: assembled from international all-stars. As a fan of rowing, how
could I possibly have a problem with that? It's exciting to watch &
read about. I just think that the Universities should do away with any
pretenses that these are true student-athletes.

Now hold on here. They may come from all over the world, but they are
all enrolled as full time students, studying for a degree. They fit
their rowing in around those studies, and for most of them, as graduate
students, that can be accommodated. OUBC, CUBC, and the universities
take a very dim view of the notion of "non-student" athletes - you may
recall that Torsten Englemann had his 2008 Blue revoked when he left
Cambridge before graduating to return to the German National team. The
fact that he did points out how unusual his case was. Your
"guns-for-hire" who "never bother to finish their studies" is so far off
the mark, it is laughable. In addition, you must recall that none of
these oarsmen are on US-type athletic scholarships. Take a look at how
many of this year's Boat Race crews are completing doctoral degrees - I
doubt your Estonian buddies have that in mind.

In the USA, there are very strict guidelines that athletes must follow
(registering for courses that lead to a specific degree, keeping grades
up term to term, and showing overall progress toward a degree term to
term) else the athlete becomes ineligible to practice, let alone compete.

In the US athletes must all be undergraduates, and be on an approved
course of study. For many (and I wouldn't look at those USC transcripts
too carefully) all this means is keeping one step ahead of the NCAA
academic police, often by taking meaningless phys. ed. classes, like
golf and tennis. In some universities, it has been proven that academic
support staff have completed graded course assignments for student
athletes. However, the worst abuse is that once the athletes have used
up their four years of eligibility, many of them just drift out of
college with no degree, in some cases still barely literate. These are
no more "student"-athletes than the building janitors - they were
recruited (and, let's not forget, given full scholarships) simply for
their athletic ability. Keeping them academically eligible is a
necessary inconvenience.

IIRC from Alistair Potts' explanation (as well as that from close
friends of mine who rowed for the women's lightweight university boat at
Oxford) by the time anyone at the University realized a rower was
completely absent from any courses, and had missed all exams, etc., the
rowing year would be over and the rower on a plane back to Germany,
Boston, Estonia, or where ever.

Names? You must be able to cite these, beyond just Englemann.

What USC here in the states has apparently done is very similar to what
Ox & Cam have done for years. So my point was only that if it's okay in
the UK for Ox & Cam, then maybe it's okay for a US college to do the
same for a UK race. The problem is when that US college brags about
their accomplishments back home without fessing up that their boat
wasn't a true student-athlete boat.

BS. They have foreigners in their crew, but the similarity ends there.
The USC imports could no more hack an Oxbridge degree than fly to the
moon, and USC will not put pressure on them to do so. However, the basic
point is that the make up of an Oxbridge crew is completely different
from a US one, since they are not limited to undergraduate status only.
That completely changes the academic dimension, not to mention the
maturity of the athletes. Many oarsmen over the years have been Rhodes
Scholars, and you don't win those on the basis of your erg time.

This all begs the question though: Why don't the blue boats race at
Henley? Or maybe they do in non-Oly years?

1) Schools, 2) Many relax by rowing for college crews, 3) eights week is
only just over. But I think the main reason is that Oxford and Cambridge
crews prepare for one single race, the Boat Race, and appearing in other
regattas might devalue the position that this holds in the British
psyche.

William Clark
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: USC at Grand Challenge
    ... USC showed up at the San Diego Crew Classic with a boatload of ... USC Rowing got royally ... The Harvard and Washington crews that won the Grands were ... ineligible to finish the season and who did not race in the boat at ...
    (rec.sport.rowing)
  • Re: USC at Grand Challenge
    ... had over the make up of University of Southern California's rowing team ... USC showed up at the San Diego Crew Classic with a boatload of ... US will generally prohibit anybody but full time undergrad students ... The Harvard and Washington crews that won the Grands were ...
    (rec.sport.rowing)
  • Re: USC at Grand Challenge
    ... had over the make up of University of Southern California's rowing team ... think the Estonians were registered full time students, ... that some wealthy USC alum funded the athletes to come to the US ... remarkable crews that occupy a special place in rowing history ...
    (rec.sport.rowing)
  • Re: USC at Grand Challenge
    ... had over the make up of University of Southern California's rowing team ... USC showed up at the San Diego Crew Classic with a boatload of ... The Harvard and Washington crews that won the Grands were ... ineligible to finish the season and who did not race in the boat at ...
    (rec.sport.rowing)
  • Re: USC at Grand Challenge
    ... had over the make up of University of Southern California's rowing team ... US will generally prohibit anybody but full time undergrad students ... remarkable crews that occupy a special place in rowing history ... ineligible to finish the season and who did not race in the boat at ...
    (rec.sport.rowing)