Re: Was Chinese Boats
- From: "mjgill" <mjgill@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:27:30 GMT
"Carl Douglas" <Carl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:i47K+pGXmYwCFw0c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> mjgill <mjgill@xxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
>>Dear All,
>>
>>Have been reading with interest the thread on Chinese Boats.
>>
>>Carl's points are well made in explaining why Western manufacturing costs
>>are higher, and there is much focus on the fact that Chinese manufacturing
>>costs are less.
>>
>>However, this effect has been seen in many industries over the last 50
>>years, and whilst some respondents said that going for the cheaper
>>manufacture is a short term fix for the consumer, protectionism in the
>>marketplace is a similarly short term fix for the national economy in
>>question, which will come home to roost at some point (France, Germany, US
>>industries such as automotive, European agriculture and others I am sure).
>>
>>Anyway, this isn't a political group, so on to the point.
>
> Few things in life are non-political. Political, come from "politikos" -
> Greek for citizen. Politics is all about citizens, being a citizen & what
> affects citizens - even citizens while rowing.
>
> But let's not be political, hey?
>
>>
>>If you can't compete on cost (and this seems to be agreed) then you need
>>to
>>find something else to compete on that gives the consumer the value he
>>seeks
>>for his £/$/whatever, leaving him happy to pay a bit more to cover the
>>increased costs.
>
> If I could hire & fire at will, pay peanuts for rent & labour, get dirt
> cheap loans, & if there was no meaningful health & safety legislation &
> my nation's currency was held artificially low, etc., then I could build
> very cheaply.
>
> If I had no concern for those working under such conditions, as a
> "consumer" (lovely word that!) I might say "Let the Devil take the
> hindmost" & go for cheapest, regardless of source. But you, as everyone
> else on this island & in the so-called west, benefit from a social system
> which protects you & fellow citizens from most forms of exploitation.
> Unlike the workers of many other countries.
>
> Without thinking it through, we all from time to time insist on our
> individual "right" to benefit from the checks & balances of our costly
> social system while trading with those who impose burdens which we would
> consider outrageous if imposed on us
>
> Having a conscience about that was one reason why we eventually abolished
> slavery, having for many years built part of our economy on that most
> vicious form of exploitation, & we should take care not to foster what we
> grudgingly learned was unacceptable.
>
>
>
> And, while considering the likely impacts, please ponder the scale of the
> US/China trade imbalance, sustained by China's refusal to revalue its
> currency. How long can that go on, & meanwhile what damage is it doing to
> an efficient US economy which, under such pressure, is increasingly
> exporting its jobs overseas?
>
> In Britain over the last 50 years we have watched one industry after
> another be wiped out by unregulated external competition as we have been
> increasingly shackled & priced out of the markets by one cunning
> governmental impost after another.
>
> I, like you, thoroughly disapprove of commercial protectionism. No one
> should resent fair competition, but were unfair competition ever to hit
> you then you might feel just as others do & as many, many others will come
> to feel when it hits them. While I think we should ideally compete on a
> level playing field I am more than happy to compete against a bit of a
> slope. But some businesses, not yet in rowing, are now having to fight
> vertically upwards against impossible odds. In which case, what's the
> point of protecting workers if, in that way & by other thoughtless
> actions, their jobs go elsewhere.
>
> As you know, governments are the least efficient of all when it comes to
> planning & project management, but politicians and senior managers are the
> very last people to feel in their pockets the pain of damage they do by
> their lack of joined up thinking.
>
>>
>>>From my experience of the British boat building industry, with a few
>>notable
>>exceptions customer service is woeful. Build quality is indifferent.
>>Delivery dates are usually left vague and then not met anyway. Some design
>>features are at best questionable. Many products are just poor, and the
>>experience of getting them is unpleasant and difficult. The names have
>>been
>>changed to protect the guilty :-)
>>
>>So why the hell would anyone pay a premium for this?
>
> Few, in any walk of life are entirely innocent of some or all of the
> accusations you make above.
>
>>
>>The market is somewhat divided, between the performance end (Empacher,
>>Filipi) and what we might call the club end. People seeking an extra 1%
>>will
>>for the foreseeable future remain loyal to performance providers I think.
>>People wanting something special (and fast) will continue to pay a bit
>>more
>>for a CD. At the club end, resources are finite, and clubs are often
>>looking
>>to get as many seats available as possible. If I can buy 3 Chinese 1xs for
>>the price of 2 UK manufactured, and I can see no great difference in
>>quality, and the whole purchasing experience is better, what would any
>>sensible person do?
>
> Only you can answer that.
>
> Who will maintain or repair those products in 5 years time? Maybe only
> you can answer that, too. Only time will tell.
>
>>
>>Plenty of Western industries have bleated about unfair competition from
>>lower cost providers. They are not around now. Plenty have realised they
>>cannot compete on price so need to find something else to offer. Many of
>>them are still here. I hope this pressure shakes at least some of the
>>manufacturers out of their slumbers and gets them thinking about how to
>>serve us better. I would love to buy British, but need a little more
>>motivation to do so than pure altruism to a business that doesn't appear
>>to
>>care about me.
>
> Obviously you have had a bad experience, but my personal experience of the
> many mall businesses which have long served our sport is that almost all
> of them care deeply about their clients. OTOH I have a surfeit of recent
> examples of much larger businesses which simply do no care a damn. And
> that is the case despite the more extreme pressures of small business,
> whose owner must needs fill every executive & PR function for which larger
> firms have a team.
>
> None of which says that you do not have a perfect right to speak as you
> find, & to act as purse & conscience dictate.
>
> Cheers -
> Carl
> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
> Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
> Email: carl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
> URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
>
Carl,
I fully agree with many of the points you have made.
However, that do not particularly speak to the question I was in a
roundabout way asking. These cost imbalances exist, and the product is out
there in the market. We may argue about the underlying reasons for that, and
the validity and morality of those reasons, but the fact remains and must be
accepted.
So cost cannot be the competitive factor in this equation for the industry
to survive the apocalypse you foresee, as it cannot for most of western
manufacturing. People will pay more for equivalent products if they perceive
they are getting some extra, often intangible, gain. The Ford Mondeo is
considered to be at least as good if not better than the BMW 3 series. Yet
the BMW outsells it, despite the c. £6k extra it costs.
Continuing the automotive theme, GM and Ford are currently in dire
difficulties, with their market shares being rapidly eroded by Far Eastern
competitors. Some of this is as a result of the great legacy costs of
looking after their current and retired workforce, a legacy as you say of
operating in regulated markets where workers rights are legislated for. But
much of their difficulties are a result of years of complacency, lack of
development, and tolerating inefficiencies in their processes. They believed
their customers would continue to buy their products out of some inertia
fuelled loyalty. That this is not the case is now coming home to roost.
I sympathise with your complaints as to the efforts that you have to
undertake to keep your business going. But I have no doubts that your
business will continue for as long as you choose to run it. You offer
innovative and quality products, you understand what you are doing inside
out, you spend a lot of time with customers, providing a very high quality,
craftsman built product that many people aspire to own. For you to be as
excised as you seem to be about your cost of manufacture is not particularly
valid. I am sure you could charge more and still have your order book full.
My concern is more for those manufacturers that seek to compete more on the
cost, or "value for money" end of the spectrum. As their cost advantage in
the market is eroded, what can they put in place to replace that to
encourage people to buy from them? Can lead times be reduced? Can service be
improved? Can quality be improved? Can the cachet of owning the boat
relative to others be improved?
For many manufacturers the answer to the first three is definatly yes, and
to the fourth possibly. And people will pay for those things. Purchasing,
owning and using a boat is an emotional thing. It should not be treated as a
commodity, and with that not just considered on cost terms.
You state I must have had a bad experience. I have had three over the past
couple of years:
1) On purchasing a coxed four: We were asked to specify shoe sizes and type
of seats. We gave sizes and asked for single action. We got different sizes
and double action seats. Minor niggles, but how hard would it have been to
get it right, particularly after asking the question? The boat was ordered
for a 70 kg crew. We have serious doubts as to whether this is the case. It
certainly seems to be designed for a significantly heavier crew. We
requested CD riggers. The manufacturer was very resistant to this, telling
us the cost would go up, but only when severely pressed did he actually
quote the figure, which was c. £200, a figure we were more than happy to pay
for what we believed to be a better product. See, happy to pay more if it is
warranted.
2) On purchasing an eight. Ordered in February, delivery advised for early
May. Boat finally arrived one week after Henley. Not ideal. The date was
frequently revised, but never in a very categorical, or it turned out,
accurate manner. Subsequently the boat has had to go back to the
manufacturer due to delaminations in several of the deck sections within 6
months of delivery, which was agreed to be due to manufacturing errors.
3) On purchasing a further coxed four, the manufacturer has made
"developments" in the design of the steering mechanism. These have rendered
the shell extremely difficult to control, and it makes me question how much
thought and testing was put into this innovation.
I note Stan's comments that he has had good experiences. I am sure many
other people share his view. But I am similarly sure that many people share
my frustrations. To return to the original point, if these can be addressed,
I am sure the vast majority of the UK rowing population will be more than
happy to buy British, and to pay a premium for doing so to receive great
service from people we know, trust, and like. I sincerely hope this is what
comes to pass.
.
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